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  1. Post
    #1
    How do you actually win late-game ZvP?

    I just played a game (Masters level, NA) where I had several bases (read: pretty much the rest of the map) while the toss just turtled on 3 base. Then he got a mothership out and crushed 2 of my broodlord/infestor armies. He made 60ish workers the entire game.

    Honestly, how the **** are you supposed to beat this ****? All the toss needs to do is turtle up, which isn't very hard, and then wait until they have vortex.

    Any advice greatly appreciated. Replay here: http://replayfu.com/r/PBmT9. I way overmade lings at the very start because I thought he was going all-in, but I had a better income in the end.

  2. Post
    #2
    I didn't watch, but from what I know of modern Z is that you need to harass the crap out of them. Letting them get into a defensive position is just asking to die, snipe bases and colossus and rape their worker line at every opportunity etc. Make opportunities to harass as well, don't just hope they get out of position on their own.

    Just things I've noticed from GSL level zergs.

  3. Post
    #3
    I had a look at the replay and have a few observations that may (or may not) help (Diamond T).

    I felt like you were way too blind the whole game. You didn't really have any new intel on his tech route once your sac'd OL went down. You only knew he had gone Collo at around 18 minutes when you saw them on the field. I think a Overseer or two was crucial.

    Building on this point of a lack of intel, you missed some great timing opportunities to attack. Although I'm pretty sure it's almost impossible for Z to bust a P wall like what he had without going all in, you would have CRUSHED his army with the one you had at around 11.30, just before he secured his third. Since he invested heavily in a robotics facility and 2 robo he wouldn't have been able to reinforce enough to repel that 11.30 timing I reckon.

    I think you could have also taken your third a bit earlier than you did, probably around 8.45-9.20 would have been good. But again, you probably didn't really feel safe until then, but that comes to the complete lack of intel. You had a way oversaturated main, (like 48ish drones) so a much earlier third should have been no problem really.

    Your injects are really good, but I think you would benefit from several macro hatches in games like that. During those late game engagements vs P you're going to lose a lot regardless, but once you have 4+ bases you will overwhelm a P like that no problem with enough larvae. His production facilities were pretty **** tbh.

    Your upgrades weren't good enough at all, you most def should have had a second evo a lot earlier and carapace pumping with your attack. Could have even taken a third to do melee as well. Since you choose to go the air route, a second spire would have been fine for faster upgrades too, you had plenty of money.

    I dunno if your unit comp was the best choice, I reckon some ultras in the mix (assuming you had pumped more upgrades) would have been really good for breaking down that stalker/collo deathball. You had the resources for an almost pure tier 3 army (broods/ultra/corrupt upgraded would have rolled that P army). Obviously if you had known he wasn't going some kind of gateway combo timing you would have completely forgone the hydras, considering he had 2 robo and a robo facility.

    In summary I think the main problems was a lack of aggression from being in the dark almost the whole game and inadequate upgrades considering your income.

  4. Post
    #4
    Upgrades were a huge part and I see lots of top lvl zerg going for neural parasite vs a mothership army, drag it away from their army and own it if he lets you NP it. Think Cold Fire covered most of it. I think as zerg you can utilise your mobility a bit vs an army like that, especially with if he has mothership out, it's slow as phuck and tbh the rest of his army is too apart from blink stalkers/colossi

    Im pretty ****e so take this with a grain of salt

  5. Post
    #5
    I am watching now. In due time I will bless you with the knowledge of a thousand Koreans.

  6. Post
    #6
    Wow i thought this was going to be intense. Really could have won that game quite easily.

    three things,

    You were in the dark the entire game, and quite badly set back from the beginning.
    You weren't aggressive enough (no scouting) which means no pressure felt, which means he could expand at will and secure those expansions.
    And you engaged horribly at the fight.

    Pretty much, if you scouted, you could have attacked 10 minutes earlier and crushed. Or even scouted and spotted the mother ship (and attacked in a better well suited fashion).

  7. Post
    #7
    Don't let them get a mothership. End the game before that happens.

    Mothership = imba.

  8. Post
    #8
    Thanks for the replies everybody. I'll have to re-watch the replay and contrast it with the suggestions you've made, but I'll respond with how I remember the game going in my head.

    Greshark wrote:
    I didn't watch, but from what I know of modern Z is that you need to harass the crap out of them. Letting them get into a defensive position is just asking to die, snipe bases and colossus and rape their worker line at every opportunity etc. Make opportunities to harass as well, don't just hope they get out of position on their own
    Harassing is definitely useful but I'm not sure exactly how much harassing I could have done in this game. I definitely should have been more aggressive in the mid game, but I didn't really have a good idea of what my opponent's situation was like - playing too blind as many of you had mentioned. That being said, until the very end of the game he was turtling on 3 base, and had walled off pretty solidly. There were points in the game where I should have just straight-up thrown roach/hydra at him, but eventually he got a number of collossi out that makes it pretty hard to attack into. The alternative is going muta, which is what I used to do, but I find myself quite disliking that style at the moment. Mutas are probably one of the worst units to actually engage with, so you need to have really good decision making and confidence in-game to initiate base trade scenarios, something I'm not quite good enough to do yet to be honest. But thanks for the suggestion anyway, I definitely should have put some pressure on.

    Co|d Fire wrote:

    I felt like you were way too blind the whole game. You didn't really have any new intel on his tech route once your sac'd OL went down. You only knew he had gone Collo at around 18 minutes when you saw them on the field. I think a Overseer or two was crucial.
    I agree. I personally find that past the 10 minute mark or so, once you have an idea of his tech route it doesn't matter too much what he does, because he can't really deviate into anything too unexpected. But if I had known just how weak he was at times, I probably could have, as you say, crushed his army.

    And yeah, the 11:30-ish timing is generally the only way I can win ZvP to be honest. The only time I can really win is when there's a sweet spot in how roaches play out (i.e., 10 roaches is good, 15 roaches is even better, 20 roaches is good, 30 roaches is getting pretty ****house) and I can deny his third. There comes a point, say 14:00 although is specifically determined by his Robo , where roach/hydra just becomes absolute dog****. Lair tech is ****ing rubbish in the latter part of the mid-game, especially when you try and attack into a choke. But if I had hit early enough, it probably would have worked. Roaches are just a terrible, terrible unit at the end of the day.


    I think you could have also taken your third a bit earlier than you did, probably around 8.45-9.20 would have been good. But again, you probably didn't really feel safe until then, but that comes to the complete lack of intel. You had a way oversaturated main, (like 48ish drones) so a much earlier third should have been no problem really.
    Yeah, I normally get a much earlier third, I was mainly trying to stabilise after I thought he had gone all-in. You're right though, proper intel would have served me well and made me feel safe.

    Your upgrades weren't good enough at all, you most def should have had a second evo a lot earlier and carapace pumping with your attack. Could have even taken a third to do melee as well. Since you choose to go the air route, a second spire would have been fine for faster upgrades too, you had plenty of money.
    Yeah, I had more resources than sense. Should have spammed upgrades.

    The problem with going roach/hydra is that the transition to T3 is total ****. Melee upgrades improve broodlings and ultra, whereas +air doesn't help at all once roaches and hydras become useless due to blink stalkers / collossi. The alternative is to go ling/infestor and get +melee and +carapace right from the get-go, but mass ling has problems of its own.

    I dunno if your unit comp was the best choice, I reckon some ultras in the mix (assuming you had pumped more upgrades) would have been really good for breaking down that stalker/collo deathball. You had the resources for an almost pure tier 3 army (broods/ultra/corrupt upgraded would have rolled that P army). Obviously if you had known he wasn't going some kind of gateway combo timing you would have completely forgone the hydras, considering he had 2 robo and a robo facility.
    Yep, everything could have been speeded up. Forgot a spire until after my Hive popped, lol. But the reason why I decided to engage when I did was basically because I saw him getting his fourth up, and decided that if I didn't attack right that moment there was no way I could have won. If I had streamlined my spending I could have had a much stronger composition by the time of that engagement though, for sure.

    mafro wrote:
    You were in the dark the entire game, and quite badly set back from the beginning.
    You weren't aggressive enough (no scouting) which means no pressure felt, which means he could expand at will and secure those expansions.
    And you engaged horribly at the fight.
    Yep, my engagement was total ****. Any advice on how to actually engage better? I had spines in the middle, but that fourth base of P is just so choked up, and I felt like if I didn't engage right then and there I'd have no chance of winning the game. Still though, I should have had 5+ overseers with the engagement, and some corruptors to take down the mothership asap. Real ****ing sloppy of me.

    I had a ling at each of his expansions and whatnot, so I made sure he stayed on 3 base, and moved out when he tried to take his fourth - but I still bungled it. And yeah, he was significantly weaker than I had imagined at points in the game, but I find it so ****ing hard to actually engage P if they turtle. Roaches are just so damn ****.

    Phew. Cheers guys, appreciate the feedback.

  9. Post
    #9
    Marados. wrote:
    And yeah, the 11:30-ish timing is generally the only way I can win ZvP to be honest. The only time I can really win is when there's a sweet spot in how roaches play out (i.e., 10 roaches is good, 15 roaches is even better, 20 roaches is good, 30 roaches is getting pretty ****house) and I can deny his third. There comes a point, say 14:00 although is specifically determined by his Robo , where roach/hydra just becomes absolute dog****. Lair tech is ****ing rubbish in the latter part of the mid-game, especially when you try and attack into a choke. But if I had hit early enough, it probably would have worked. Roaches are just a terrible, terrible unit at the end of the day.
    Yeah I completely agree, Roaches are really a ****ing awful unit that are easy to get "stuck" in building, especially in ZvP. They're only useful like you say in (almost paradoxically) fewer numbers earlier and are at their most deadly potential in that build up to the 11.30 timing mark.

    Marados. wrote:
    Yep, my engagement was total ****. Any advice on how to actually engage better? I had spines in the middle, but that fourth base of P is just so choked up, and I felt like if I didn't engage right then and there I'd have no chance of winning the game. Still though, I should have had 5+ overseers with the engagement, and some corruptors to take down the mothership asap. Real ****ing sloppy of me.
    Your first engagement was just a miss management since the Mothership completely took you by surprise. Most of your hydras and roaches were moving around the pillar and didn't even get a chance to attack anything since the cloak went down and then got melted with their dicks in their hands, while a big chunk of your forces went into the vortex and then emerged into the storm meatgrinder.

    The second engagement was bad because he recalled up into your main, forcing you to come up into the choke.

    Tbh there's not really any way you can dictate where an engagement is going to be if the P isn't a complete retard. He's just going to back away if he feels like it's too open and he risks a surrounded or is going to give you a good concave.

    I actually think you chose the right place to engage the first time (outside his 4th) it was just poorly timed due to the mothership arriving. When your lings went for a run by it was the perfect bait, he bought his entire force to fend it off. If your primary force was waiting just out of vision of it (instead of in the middle of the map), split into two groups on either side of the pillars, with your broods hovering above the pillars that engagement would have gone a lot differently, since he blocked the only way out with those gateways @ his 4th.

  10. Post
    #10
    Here's another late-game ZvP I lose if anybody cares to take a stab at it. http://replayfu.com/r/0C5qcv

    Things I note:

    Definitely shouldn't have let those cannons go up, I really can't believe I didn't scout that. I didn't lose the hatchery, although I did stupidly lose a queen, and also way overmade lings. I thought I wasn't in *too* bad shape though.

    I tried to deny his third, wasn't really going too well, so I decided to turtle up hard and spam spines, looking for the end-game engagement.


    The end game engagement happens and... I get demolished. I just don't understand this **** man. I think perhaps if I had infestors it would have made all the difference: but I still just don't know what happened. I was totally **** on my upgrades, just straight up forgot about them and didn't have the APM to compensate.

    Bleh, I hate late game Zv*, I just really really suck at it. How the **** did I get to Masters without having a clue what to do past the 15 minute mark? You tell me.