Denuvo - the best "DRM" that can defeat PC piracy

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  1. Post
    #26
    seanhinton wrote:
    I imagine if Denuvo became that pervasive you'd see substantially more investment from other crack groups to compete. I'm not sure why you'd think/claim otherwise?
    The group that's currently taking down Denuvo (3DM) has a financial incentive to crack, since cracked games are widely sold in China quite openly. They also host a very popular site where info & their cracks are distributed. I'm not sure if they run any premium memberships, but the ad revenue itself is a further financial incentive.
    ADD : Just to clarify, both historically and currently crack groups in China are known to host very successful gaming communities that would rival mainstream gaming sites like Gamespot or IGN. There is a lot of money in it. It's quite different from Western crack groups, and completely dwarfs Russian crack groups.

    Right now the lesser groups are not as skilled, and cracking non-Denuvo games doesn't take nearly as much effort. If it becomes too difficult, I do think that less skilled groups will simply give up instead of pursuing Denuvo with a vengeance without any compensation and a huge time sink.

  2. Post
    #27
    Appreciate the heads up, don't think most people have ever heard of this. Perhaps someone in the know can summarize what it does that is actually effective.

    However I do tend to think that the success of Steam is an example of a more worthy ideal that we should collectively focus on growing and promoting (not just Steam but any value-added legitimate marketplace), rather than wasting energy only trying to frustrate people who don't have the intention of participating in the market regardless.

    Chinese people seem more interested in playing Chinese games, and there is a lot of legit money in local p2w/f2p models. Not sure where you're getting your stats from, but interested to know more.

  3. Post
    #28
    KrimzinZV wrote:
    DRM is like putting a bit of tape over a hole in a dam. It doesn't fix anything, like I said they need to focus on why people aren't getting it legitimately, it will get cracked sooner or later.
    Not every person is logical, I know people who have been pirating games their whole life, they never buy a game if they can pirate it. You cannot make a game to make this type of person pay they will always pirate.

    The only other way to combat this person is to have an always online game such as memos or ftp games do

  4. Post
    #29
    Interesting read.

    If there is no performance loss or any other issues that prevent me from playing the game then I would support every game using DRM in theory. More money to publishers, more money to devs... hopefully that would equal a greater quality and quantity of games (I realise that this is as naive as people saying that making every game "good" would stop piracy, but one can dream).

    I can however think of at least one example where this DRM might hold modders back. Skyrim has mods that require the use of a different .exe to be able to function, and this DRM would likely throw a spanner in the works for creating similar mods on any Bethesda game that were to utilise it.

  5. Post
    #30
    GhoX wrote:
    I do think that less skilled groups will simply give up instead of pursuing Denuvo with a vengeance without any compensation and a huge time sink.
    I disagree. If we saw the majority of games moving to Denuvo there would undoubtedly be new/existing groups attempting to crack it.

    It's a strange notion to even suggest that monetary gain is the pure motivator for this type of thing, when over the past 20 years we've seen people time and time again "crack" software or "jailbreak" devices for nothing more than their own intrinsic motivation to do so. However, even if money was the primary motivator I find it almost unimaginable that 3DM has such a strong competitive advantage in the cracking world that it would become sustainable for them and only them.
    I'm entirely open to the idea that releases may be slowed, or "indie" cracking groups (without financial support) could become more sporadic but, I don't agree that any single group is going to ever monopolies piracy.

  6. Post
    #31
    InvisibleShadow wrote:
    I can however think of at least one example where this DRM might hold modders back. Skyrim has mods that require the use of a different .exe to be able to function, and this DRM would likely throw a spanner in the works for creating similar mods on any Bethesda game that were to utilise it.
    Are you talking about the script extender? It uses a separate .exe instead of modifying the original one, so I'm not sure if Denuvo will actually affect it at all. No way to test out. Ultimately though, it will be up to the devs to ensure their game remains moddable if they choose to use Denuvo.

    seanhinton wrote:
    I disagree. If we saw the majority of games moving to Denuvo there would undoubtedly be new/existing groups attempting to crack it.

    It's a strange notion to even suggest that monetary gain is the pure motivator for this type of thing, when over the past 20 years we've seen people time and time again "crack" software or "jailbreak" devices for nothing more than their own intrinsic motivation to do so. However, even if money was the primary motivator I find it almost unimaginable that 3DM has such a strong competitive advantage in the cracking world that it would become sustainable for them and only them.
    I'm entirely open to the idea that releases may be slowed, or "indie" cracking groups (without financial support) could become more sporadic but, I don't agree that any single group is going to ever monopolies piracy.
    I think it may be something that only time will tell. I would differentiate jailbreaking and general cracking differently. The former comes with it a certain degree of challenge and repute, while the latter can become very monotonous when the process is dreary and time-consuming. The latter is effectively a job, and is very different from what cracking groups these days generally have to overcome.

    Currently, leading cracking groups tend to only deal in high quantity of easy releases, and there is only about 3-4 of them (including 3DM). The non-Chinese groups of the lot tend to get replaced from time to time, e.g. Razor gets replaced by Skidrow. On the other hand, the vast majority of so-called cracking groups actually do nothing more than repackaging existing releases - a single scene release could result in 5-10 different repacks. And ever since Denuvo's first introduction, 3DM has been the only group even willing to tackle Denuvo.

    Looking at a game like Lords of the Fallen (admittedly, not popular), it remained uncracked (as a low priority) for many many months, until 3DM was done with other Denuvo titles and returned to it. I too find it unimaginable that no other group out there even attempted the task while 3DM was busy elsewhere, but that's what happened.

  7. Post
    #32
    GhoX wrote:
    Please support your assertion of "DRM is a solution that never works and only ends up hurting legitimate customers" in the context of Denuvo. How exactly does it hurt legitimate customers, or are you simply generalising without facts?
    How is a high quality product purchased off Steam affected in any way by whether it uses Denuvo or not, other than the fact that it will be significantly harder to crack?
    It may not hurt consumers now, but it absolutely will in the long term. When it comes to playing a lot of older games that I own on modern Windows do you know what usually the biggest compatibility hurdle is? The DRM in place. With many older games I pretty much have to use cracks because the DRM isn't forward compatible.

    Not every game with a disc check (or if we're talking late 2000's titles, SecuROM with online activation or TAGES) from back in the day was cracked, or the only cracks available are for an unpatched/older version of the game. Mercenaries 2 and Crysis 1 immediately come to mind. I.e. there's no crack for the v1.1 version of Mercs 2; Crysis 1 never had a cracked version of the x64 EXE for the final patched game.

    Here's another thing, Steamworks already offers DRM as an option. 3rd party DRM on Steamworks games is generally not appreciated by consumers. I'll say this again, stop shilling for Sony DADC.

  8. Post
    #33
    The most effective form of DRM is online-only single player, like Diablo 3. Emulated Servers won't be out for months/years and a simple cease and desist is enough to stop most from developing one around release.

  9. Post
    #34
    I remember when people used to talk about Starforce like this. Everyone remember that one?

  10. Post
    #35
    Necriss wrote:
    The most effective form of DRM is online-only single player, like Diablo 3. Emulated Servers won't be out for months/years and a simple cease and desist is enough to stop most from developing one around release.
    private servers also take away from the experience, private WoW servers are so trash that I'd rather pay Blizzard $15 a month than play for free on a private server, as an example anyway

  11. Post
    #36
    EvaUnit02 wrote:
    It may not hurt consumers now, but it absolutely will in the long term. When it comes to playing a lot of older games that I own on modern Windows do you know what usually the biggest compatibility hurdle is? The DRM in place. With many older games I pretty much have to use cracks because the DRM isn't forward compatible.

    Not every game with a disc check (or if we're talking late 2000's titles, SecuROM with online activation or TAGES) from back in the day was cracked, or the only cracks available are for an unpatched/older version of the game. Mercenaries 2 and Crysis 1 immediately come to mind. I.e. there's no crack for the v1.1 version of Mercs 2; Crysis 1 never had a cracked version of the x64 EXE for the final patched game.

    Here's another thing, Steamworks already offers DRM as an option. 3rd party DRM on Steamworks games is generally not appreciated by consumers. I'll say this again, stop shilling for Sony DADC.
    Again, please address your argument in the context of Denuvo. It is not SecuROM or some other form of DRM, so your analogies don't really apply.

    How will Denuvo specifically hurt consumers in the future? As mentioned much earlier, Denuvo is not a DRM by itself, it's anti-tampering. In fact, it's only ever been bundled together with SteamDRM or Origin's DRM. I can only see it hurting consumers in the future (based on the example you provided of inaccessible old games), if decades from now Steam as a whole shuts down and all our libraries are lost, leaving only a bunch of SteamDRM/Denuvo Steam games on the market. Let's not consider how unlikely that is. If that happens I'm sure we will have much bigger problems in the industry.

    Denuvo is not a 3rd party DRM, and in fact the vast majority of consumers will not even notice that it's there - that's how little effect it has on legitimate consumers.

    I have a different opinion from yours, so I must be shilling. If that's the case, can I also accuse you of shilling for 3DM, merely because you disagree with me? You can do better than that.

  12. Post
    #37
    GhoX: How does Denuvo work?

    Also, you vastly misunderstand the reason most crackers crack games. Sure, 3DM get money out of it... But that's them. The majority do it because they enjoy it. The part you call "the dreariness of the process" is actually stimulating and engaging. Many people all around the world love solving impossible problems. And if it is claimed that a problem is just too difficult? Yeah, that's only going to encourage more of them.

    You are suffering from a fundamental inability to understand the motivations of people that aren't you.

  13. Post
    #38
    Nerin wrote:
    GhoX: How does Denuvo work?

    Also, you vastly misunderstand the reason most crackers crack games. Sure, 3DM get money out of it... But that's them. The majority do it because they enjoy it. The part you call "the dreariness of the process" is actually stimulating and engaging. Many people all around the world love solving impossible problems. And if it is claimed that a problem is just too difficult? Yeah, that's only going to encourage more of them.

    You are suffering from a fundamental inability to understand the motivations of people that aren't you.
    The issue is you can't compare traditional cracking to Denuvo cracking. The latter is less about solving problem, more about grinding. Still, since when did the discussion went on to defending crackers' interest in cracking?

    In any case, regardless of how the cracking community may react to wide adoption of Denuvo, that is still in the future, and one way or another both you and I have only hypotheses, and I'm not so close-minded as to believe that crackers will definitely give up - I view it as a possibility. Time well tell.

    Throwing personal insult at the end makes you look classy and cool on the internet.

  14. Post
    #39
    GhoX wrote:
    The issue is you can't compare traditional cracking to Denuvo cracking. The latter is less about solving problem, more about grinding. Still, since when did the discussion went on to defending crackers' interest in cracking?

    In any case, regardless of how the cracking community may react to wide adoption of Denuvo, that is still in the future, and one way or another both you and I have only hypotheses, and I'm not so close-minded as to believe that crackers will definitely give up - I view it as a possibility. Time well tell.

    Throwing personal insult at the end makes you look classy and cool on the internet.
    Where's the insult? Also why is cracking Denuvo more about grinding? Have you tried cracking something of both to compare it?

  15. Post
    #40
    GhoX wrote:
    The issue is you can't compare traditional cracking to Denuvo cracking. The latter is less about solving problem, more about grinding.
    Except you can compare it, you're just looking at it from a very narrow perspective.
    Human motivation is vastly more complex than you're giving it credit. Even if we adopt the naive position that Denuvo cracking is somehow more "grindy" than previous DRM solutions (which have never encountered the problem of crackers "giving up"), there's a significant percentage of people who are motivated to complete repetitive tasks purely for the social reward. Anyone that understands this can see that it's simply not going to be as problematic as you're painting it out to be.

  16. Post
    #41
    seanhinton wrote:
    Except you can compare it, you're just looking at it from a very narrow perspective.
    Human motivation is vastly more complex than you're giving it credit. Even if we adopt the naive position that Denuvo cracking is somehow more "grindy" than previous DRM solutions (which have never encountered the problem of crackers "giving up"), there's a significant percentage of people who are motivated to complete repetitive tasks purely for the social reward. Anyone that understands this can see that it's simply not going to be as problematic as you're painting it out to be.
    Actually, "crackers giving up" has already happened due to Denuvo, on a few occasions. Lords of the Fallen was abandoned for many many months until 3DM was done with other more popular projects and went back to it. MGS V is left with an unstable crack, as 3DM tried to completely crack the game for months in vain. There are now rumours that 3DM has decided to skip Just Cause 3, since the game is not so popular and Denuvo is too much work. Time well tell on this last one.

    The fact remains though that nobody else picked up Lords of the Fallen for the many months 3DM was away out of "human motivation". Nobody else is picking up the abandoned MGS 5 out of "human motivation". Are you certain you are not overestimating human motivation, or perhaps the capabilities of the cracking groups fueled merely by "human motivation"?

  17. Post
    #42
    GhoX wrote:
    Actually, "crackers giving up" has already happened due to Denuvo, on a few occasions. Lords of the Fallen was abandoned for many many months until 3DM was done with other more popular projects and went back to it. MGS V is left with an unstable crack, as 3DM tried to completely crack the game for months in vain. There are now rumours that 3DM has given up on Just Cause 3, since the game is not so popular and Denuvo is too much work. Time well tell on this last one.

    The fact remains though that nobody else picked up Lords of the Fallen for the many months 3DM was away out of "human motivation". Nobody else is picking up the abandoned MGS 5 out of "human motivation". Are you certain you are not overestimating human motivation, or perhaps the capabilities of the cracking groups fueled merely by "human motivation"?
    Sorry but how exactly do you know that no one is working on those things currently? or even, will work on them in the future. I've already acknowledged that Denuvo may created delays and the piracy landscape may change as a result, but you're essentially saying these products (and in your hypothetical thousands of games) would just be abandoned by pirates forever. It's more than just a little bit ridiculous.

  18. Post
    #43
    seanhinton wrote:
    Sorry but how exactly do you know that no one is working on those things currently? or even, will work on them in the future. I've already acknowledged that Denuvo may created delays and the piracy landscape may change as a result, but you're essentially saying these products (and in your hypothetical thousands of games) would just be abandoned by pirates forever. It's more than just a little bit ridiculous.
    That's not what I'm saying? Please don't try pulling strawmans out of it.

    I'm saying they have not been picked up now, despite the passing of such a lengthy amount of time, which is truly unheard of in the past.

    Let's not go the route of the devil's proof and start trying to prove if something will or will not happen in the future.

  19. Post
    #44
    GhoX wrote:
    That's not what I'm saying? Please don't try pulling strawmans out of it.
    and soon the vast majority of new PC titles will remain uncracked indefinitely.
    Are you sure that's not what you're saying? Because this looks an awful lot like that.

  20. Post
    #45
    seanhinton wrote:
    Are you sure that's not what you're saying? Because this looks an awful lot like that.
    That is my hypothesis when Denuvo is widespread across all PC games, as in every PC game will be using Denuvo or equivalents.

    We were discussing the status of the recent few Denuvo titles that suffered delays and were abandoned.

    Do you see the difference?

  21. Post
    #46
    GhoX wrote:
    That is my hypothesis when Denuvo is widespread across all PC games, as in every PC game will be using Denuvo or equivalents.

    We were discussing the status of the recent few Denuvo titles that suffered delays and were abandoned.
    I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about Denuvo in general and your hypothetical (i'm not sure why you think i'd just ignore the OP?). That's why I explicitly mentioned the hypothetical in the first place. Try keep up.

  22. Post
    #47
    seanhinton wrote:
    I thought I made it pretty clear that I was talking about Denuvo in general and your hypothetical (i'm not sure why you think i'd just ignore the OP?). That's why I explicitly mentioned the hypothetical in the first place. Try keep up.
    You posted that more than half a day ago, so no, I did not notice that, and I was replying to someone else.

    Well, you are free to disagree with my hypothesis. I think it will be pretty futile trying to debate it either way, since we can't pull supporting evidence from the future. It's just something we'll have to agree to disagree. You think Denuvo will not be effective even when widespread, and I think it will. That's that.

    However, that aside, is there any genuine reason that Denuvo should not be widely adopted, judging from the consumer's side? I think that's the core of this discussion, even if at the end of the day whether or not Denuvo becomes widespread is the publishers' call.

  23. Post
    #48
    GhoX wrote:
    I think it will be pretty futile trying to debate it either way, since we can't pull supporting evidence from the future. It's just something we'll have to agree to disagree. You think Denuvo will not be effective even when widespread, and I think it will.
    Great! So why are we all here again?

  24. Post
    #49
    What was the point of this thread again?

  25. Post
    #50
    Well, if people agree that Denuvo does not obstruct consumers, unlike misinformed rumours claim, then the thread has served its purpose. I don't really care about speculations of the future, since for that to happen Denuvo has to be widespread first.