Denuvo - the best "DRM" that can defeat PC piracy

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  1. Post
    #51
    where were you when wew were getting high/?

  2. Post
    #52
    KrimzinZV wrote:
    What was the point of this thread again?
    I'm not quite sure, it appeared as it if was someone trying to sell the "Denuvo" product to us.

  3. Post
    #53
    I have no idea what Denuvo is, but I feel like someone is trying to sell me a vacuum cleaner.

  4. Post
    #54
    GhoX: Since you ignored it last time... I'll ask again...

    How does Denuvo work?

    The question is rather important to any discussion about how Denuvo impacts the consumer.

    Any claim you make about what it does or does not do is completely groundless until you can tell us how it works.

    At the moment we've only got 3DM willing to explain how it works since the Denuvo devs refuse to say. From 3DM's explanation, we understand that Denuvo's whole thing is that it protects current DRM methods rather than being a DRM itself (this claim is somewhat backed up by what little Denuvo's devs have said on the matter).

    So if people find current DRM methods and practices are harmful to the consumer, and Denuvo protects those practices and methods... then Denuvo is harmful to the consumer.

    You still have all the problems of current DRM. Denuvo just makes those DRM less easy to bypass.

    So your whole selling point? That Denuvo doesn't harm the consumer? That's only true if a game were running Denuvo without any DRM. Which is pointless since Denuvo's whole purpose is to protect DRM.

    Yeah?

  5. Post
    #55
    This has convinced me Denuvo is the ****ing devil.

  6. Post
    #56
    So how does denuvo prevent piracy if no other DRM is in place?

  7. Post
    #57
    Nerin wrote:
    GhoX: Since you ignored it last time... I'll ask again...

    How does Denuvo work?

    The question is rather important to any discussion about how Denuvo impacts the consumer.

    Any claim you make about what it does or does not do is completely groundless until you can tell us how it works.

    At the moment we've only got 3DM willing to explain how it works since the Denuvo devs refuse to say. From 3DM's explanation, we understand that Denuvo's whole thing is that it protects current DRM methods rather than being a DRM itself (this claim is somewhat backed up by what little Denuvo's devs have said on the matter).

    So if people find current DRM methods and practices are harmful to the consumer, and Denuvo protects those practices and methods... then Denuvo is harmful to the consumer.

    You still have all the problems of current DRM. Denuvo just makes those DRM less easy to bypass.

    So your whole selling point? That Denuvo doesn't harm the consumer? That's only true if a game were running Denuvo without any DRM. Which is pointless since Denuvo's whole purpose is to protect DRM.

    Yeah?
    Are you adamantly against the use of even basic SteamDRM then (or Origin equivalent)? Because that's what Denuvo has been paired with. That's all Denuvo needs to be paired with. There is little need to use hyper intrusive DRM as a result of Denuvo capable of offering protection with basic and non-intrusive DRM.

    If you are going to start arguing how anti-consumer Steam is compared to GOG, feel free. I can see some logic behind that line of argument, since SteamDRM at the end of the day is still DRM. However, that would be an entirely futile argument since Steam is pretty much the very foundation of modern PC gaming.

  8. Post
    #58
    So how does denuvo prevent piracy if no other DRM is in place?

  9. Post
    #59
    GhoX: Now you're asking me to argue whether or not Steam has DRM that is harmful to the consumer.

    But... we're talking about Denuvo yeah? And Denuvo is just as good or just as bad as the DRM it is pared with, as you say. So IF it is pared with a DRM, and people feel that said DRM is harmful to the consumer, (still talking about Denuvo here, not singling any DRM out because we aren't talking about them) then Denuvo is harmful to the consumer. Because it is actively protecting and enforcing said DRM.

    Instead of trying to argue against any of that reasoning... you're sitting there trying to obfuscate.

    You want to try responding to that post again?

    As for this new tangent you appear to want to discuss instead...
    Spoiler:


    Denuvo is only as "good" as the DRM it protects. In other words... it isn't good.
    Last edited by Nerin; 13th December 2015 at 6:07 pm. Reason: Cleaning up

  10. Post
    #60
    afaik denuvo hasnt been officially cracked. Only emulated. So that could mean if say denuvo 1.1 gets released it renders the old cracks useless.

    e: also CPY have gotten through a few denuvo games

  11. Post
    #61
    Nerin wrote:
    GhoX: Now you're asking me to argue whether or not Steam has DRM that is harmful to the consumer.

    But... we're talking about Denuvo yeah? And Denuvo is just as good or just as bad as the DRM it is pared with, as you say. So IF it is pared with a DRM, and people feel that said DRM is harmful to the consumer, (still talking about Denuvo here, not singling any DRM out because we aren't talking about them) then Denuvo is harmful to the consumer. Because it is actively protecting and enforcing said DRM.

    Instead of trying to argue against any of that reasoning... you're sitting there trying to obfuscate.

    You want to try responding to that post again?

    As for this new tangent you appear to want to discuss instead...
    Spoiler:


    Denuvo is only as "good" as the DRM it protects. In other words... it isn't good.
    Don't blame the tools, blame the companies that use them improperly. By your logic "programming" itself can be harmful to consumer, since programming is what made SecuROM possible. CDPR should be ashamed for using the same tool that allowed SecuROM in making Witcher 3. Progamming is only as good as it's been put to use for. In other words, programming isn't good. Let's not go there.

    Again, I don't disagree that GOG is morally better than Steam. However, it's irrefutable that Steam is the foundation of the platform, not GOG, not Origin, not Amazon, or some other system. The fact remains that Steam's dominance cannot be changed by words and complaints alone, and nobody in the world has come up with a good idea yet.

    Practically speaking though, there is one super compelling reason that I would generally prefer purchase on Steam over GOG for new games. Despite having a technical DRM, the SteamDRM really does not get in my way. In exchange I get reliable and timely patching, a service which GOG generally fails to offer adequately, especially for smaller titles.

  12. Post
    #62
    GhoX wrote:
    Don't blame the tools, blame the companies that use them improperly. By your logic "programming" itself can be harmful to consumer, since programming is what made SecuROM possible. CDPR should be ashamed for using the same tool that allowed SecuROM in making Witcher 3. Progamming is only as good as it's been put to use for. In other words, programming isn't good. Let's not go there.

    Again, I don't disagree that GOG is morally better than Steam. However, it's irrefutable that Steam is the foundation of the platform, not GOG, not Origin, not Amazon, or some other system. The fact remains that Steam's dominance cannot be changed by words and complaints alone, and nobody in the world has come up with a good idea yet.

    Practically speaking though, there is one super compelling reason that I would generally prefer purchase on Steam over GOG for new games. Despite having a technical DRM, the SteamDRM really does not get in my way. In exchange I get reliable and timely patching, a service which GOG generally fails to offer adequately, especially for smaller titles.
    This is probably the dumbest thing I've read all year and it's goddamn December.

  13. Post
    #63
    I think a feeling of guilt is the ultimate DRM: if a game is good, how could you enjoy the experience without rewarding the devs?

    ...... I guess there are a lot of assholes in the world

  14. Post
    #64
    Did someone have their account stolen ? I don't get why he's trying to sell us DRM ? All I can think is he's working on his SEO results and needs some public forum discussions to increase his ranking.

  15. Post
    #65
    IST wrote:
    I think a feeling of guilt is the ultimate DRM: if a game is good, how could you enjoy the experience without rewarding the devs?

    ...... I guess there are a lot of assholes in the world
    This. And also if it has good multiplayer. Or just go F2P and sell skins and shit.

    Why would anyone(except developers/publishers) even care about 'defeating' piracy?

  16. Post
    #66
    KaskadeNZ wrote:
    Did someone have their account stolen ? I don't get why he's trying to sell us DRM ? All I can think is he's working on his SEO results and needs some public forum discussions to increase his ranking.
    Is it so hard for you to believe the remote possibility that different opinions are capable of existing on the internet? I genuinely believe that Denuvo has merits and can improve the imperfect PC platform from a pragmatic point of view, even if it doesn't address the inherent issues surrounding DRM.

    IST wrote:
    I think a feeling of guilt is the ultimate DRM: if a game is good, how could you enjoy the experience without rewarding the devs?

    ...... I guess there are a lot of assholes in the world
    There are. I don't think you are supposed to understand the lack of guilt some pirates can feel. People simply think very differently, especially if they grew up treating piracy as an expectation instead of a wrong.

  17. Post
    #67
    GhoX wrote:
    Don't blame the tools, blame the companies that use them improperly. By your logic "programming" itself can be harmful to consumer, since programming is what made SecuROM possible. CDPR should be ashamed for using the same tool that allowed SecuROM in making Witcher 3. Progamming is only as good as it's been put to use for. In other words, programming isn't good. Let's not go there.
    Ummm... no. Programming has a purpose beyond that of creating DRM. Denuvo has no purpose beyond protecting DRM. Your leap didn't pay off. They are not the same thing at all. It is not an extension of my logic.

    There are programs out there are that great. Many of them. If programming is only as good as the end product, then at worst it is completely neutral. Most of the time it is a net positive.

    Since I've yet to come across DRM that doesn't somehow punish - even in the smallest way - the paying consumer... Denuvo is a net negative. It protects something that has no positive impact on the consumer.

  18. Post
    #68
    People still pirate games?

  19. Post
    #69
    Rekuja wrote:
    People still pirate games?
    Apparently its rife and is killing developers.

    I'm still not sure what this Denuvo thing is, it started out as me understanding it as a form of DRM, but now it's alluded to something that protects DRM?

  20. Post
    #70
    voy1dnz wrote:
    Apparently its rife and is killing developers.

    I'm still not sure what this Denuvo thing is, it started out as me understanding it as a form of DRM, but now it's alluded to something that protects DRM?
    Same. Now my understanding is it helps protect all DRM whether good or bad.

  21. Post
    #71
    Nerin wrote:
    Since I've yet to come across DRM that doesn't somehow punish - even in the smallest way - the paying consumer... Denuvo is a net negative. It protects something that has no positive impact on the consumer.
    And I say that DRM that "punishes" consumers in the smallest way are fine, when there is a satisfactory trade-off in decent service. SteamDRM with Denuvo affects you no more than SteamDRM without Denuvo, so why as a consumer should you even care?

    ADD : Denuvo also does have purposes beyond just protecting DRM. It's capable of providing anti-tampering to a great number of things, and I don't think allowing someone without authorisation to tamper any creator's product somehow promotes public good. It'd be a complete disregard for the creator's right. Consumers are not the only people who possess rights.

  22. Post
    #72
    GhoX wrote:
    And I say that DRM that "punishes" consumers in the smallest way are fine, when there is a satisfactory trade-off in decent service. SteamDRM with Denuvo affects you no more than SteamDRM without Denuvo, so why as a consumer should you even care?

    ADD : Denuvo also does have purposes beyond just protecting DRM. It's capable of providing anti-tampering to a great number of things, and I don't think allowing someone without authorisation to tamper any creator's product somehow promotes public good. It'd be a complete disregard for the creator's right. Consumers are not the only people who possess rights.
    No, consumers don't have rights...hence DRM.

  23. Post
    #73
    drunk_monk wrote:
    No, consumers don't have rights...hence DRM.
    Well, their rights are always balanced against the seller's rights. It's never single-sided.

    Consumers have the right to freely enjoy their product, which modern DRM (i.e. SteamDRM) attempts to minimise disruption to (need for Steam acc; offline mode), or provide services (i.e. centralised patching & service) which enhance the enjoyment as a trade-off.

    However, consumers do not have any right to copy and distribute a game. They have the license to enjoy a game, but not the license to distribute it. They don't have the right to deprive the seller its rightful benefits.

    Steam & Origin also have now given the consumers the right for a refund. This is an exceptionally powerful right that may be exercised against publishers. I would also like to point out that Origin's terms of refund are actually significantly more lenient than Steam's (i.e. no 2 hours rule), but that may be because Origin primarily releases only "first party" titles.

  24. Post
    #74
    GhoX wrote:
    Is it so hard for you to believe the remote possibility that different opinions are capable of existing on the internet? I genuinely believe that Denuvo has merits and can improve the imperfect PC platform from a pragmatic point of view, even if it doesn't address the inherent issues surrounding DRM.
    If I google those sentences how many search results am I going to get relating to Denuvo ? Is this the new "cash for survey" ? Cant help but feel you're a corporate shill getting some benefit out of having this conversation appear in SEO results.

    In relation to this topic, I haven't been a pirate in years, you know what stopped it ? Affordability and a singluar platform for all my games, with the ability to install them anywhere, on any PC and have all my saved files right there. Steam. I have over 400 games (99% installed & played :P ) , a large amount are Triple A titles. Also have Origin ( 20 games ) , UBI ( 6 ) , and EPIC ( 2 ). The majority of my games are now from humble bundle, some are ones I even previously pirated.

    Other factors would be,

    MP FPS games mostly being shit, and "updated & reboxed" every 8 months, they don't interest me as they use to. They also suffer from DLC Hell and no one would be playing them by the time I got to them.

    DLC Hell, why buy an imcomplete game, might as well just wait for the GOTY / Gold editions, not only do I get a complete game, but its usually patched and runs well on my PC.

    Sales, Steam, GMG, GOG, BundleStars, Humble Bundle ( I'm giving to charity here ).



    The last two games I brought and paid full price ( actually I had huge discount ) were Borderlands 2, and PS -pre orders, + season passes.

    My number one reason for pirating was cost, followed closely by DRM/ NOCD.

  25. Post
    #75
    voy1dnz wrote:
    Apparently its rife and is killing developers.
    If only that were true.