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  1. Post

    Posts in this thread appear as comments on the following Gameplanet article:

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  2. Post
    #2
    so they signed a contract to play exclusively with a league and then decide that they do not want to be exclusive because they did not read their contracts properly.. i suppose this is kinda like teething problems with the whole esports

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    #3
    Bloody wrote:
    so they signed a contract to play exclusively with a league and then decide that they do not want to be exclusive because they did not read their contracts properly.. i suppose this is kinda like teething problems with the whole esports
    As a player, what choice did you have? If you didn't sign the contract, you couldn't compete in a league that your team had signed on. Your player value as part of the team would've been pretty worthless considering this league was going to be exclusive.

    They did the only thing they could do, which was to band together and go public.

  4. Post
    #4
    Bloody wrote:
    so they signed a contract to play exclusively with a league and then decide that they do not want to be exclusive because they did not read their contracts properly.. i suppose this is kinda like teething problems with the whole esports
    Not entirely, the contracts and intent of those contract terms were allegedly intentionally misrepresented by the organisations those players played for. The balance of power lies largely with the teams/organisations as opposed to players right now - you could say the same about traditional sports too, but unlike those traditional sports there is no professional e-sports players association to provide a collective voice.

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    #5
    lol, so 'pro'.

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    #6
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    As a player, what choice did you have? If you didn't sign the contract, you couldn't compete in a league that your team had signed on. Your player value as part of the team would've been pretty worthless considering this league was going to be exclusive.

    They did the only thing they could do, which was to band together and go public.
    you have two choices, sign or don't sign. Not signing basically means your off the team. perhaps growing up, is an essential prerequisite to signing contracts.

    Such a joke, give back the pro title now and go back to amateurland. or get managers, etc to make the calls for you, like every other pro sport in the world.

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    #7
    Unsettled wrote:
    you have two choices, sign or don't sign. Not signing basically means your off the team. perhaps growing up, is an essential prerequisite to signing contracts.

    Such a joke, give back the pro title now and go back to amateurland. or get managers, etc to make the calls for you, like every other pro sport in the world.
    Every other pro sport has a pro player's association and/or union. E-sports team owners and tournament organisers have repeatedly blocked and torpedoed attempts to set up an E-sport equivalent. I'm sure they would love to let a professional negotiate contracts for them if that was an option available to them at this point in time.

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    #8
    Celticknife wrote:
    Every other pro sport has a pro player's association and/or union. E-sports team owners and tournament organisers have repeatedly blocked and torpedoed attempts to set up an E-sport equivalent. I'm sure they would love to let a professional negotiate contracts for them if that was an option available to them at this point in time.
    How could they block players creating their own association? Did the owners put that in a contract? Did the players sign the contract?

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    #9
    Unsettled wrote:
    you have two choices, sign or don't sign. Not signing basically means your off the team. perhaps growing up, is an essential prerequisite to signing contracts.

    Such a joke, give back the pro title now and go back to amateurland. or get managers, etc to make the calls for you, like every other pro sport in the world.
    So you either give up all your rights as a player or you give up your career? Sounds fair...

  10. Post
    #10
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    So you either give up all your rights as a player or you give up your career? Sounds fair...
    If you can name a pro team sport where you don't sign some sort of exclusivity contract I'd be impressed.

  11. Post
    #11
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    So you either give up all your rights as a player or you give up your career? Sounds fair...
    yeah actually, in most sport leagues you give up all rights to play in another league until your contract ends? That is pretty much most contracts right?

  12. Post
    #12
    Unsettled wrote:
    If you can name a pro team sport where you don't sign some sort of exclusivity contract I'd be impressed.
    Bloody wrote:
    yeah actually, in most sport leagues you give up all rights to play in another league until your contract ends? That is pretty much most contracts right?
    As Celtic said, most sports have protections in place for the players. It seems the orgs hold all the resources (money, expertise) right now and most seem willing to use these to create an unfair deal. I honestly can't think of another professional sport where so much money is involved yet just about zero protection is provided by a players association/union of some sort.

    Ironically, the PEA was sold to the players as a changing of this structure but instead was used as another tool to pull the wool over the player's eyes, so to speak.

  13. Post
    #13
    Unsettled wrote:
    How could they block players creating their own association? Did the owners put that in a contract? Did the players sign the contract?
    Yes, they put them in contracts which the majority of these existing players signed - was that irresponsible? Maybe, but I have to stress again these guys signed contracts without any access to legal or professional advice since no union or player's association existed. In every other professional sport, players sign contracts with exclusivity terms with full knowledge of what that means, and generally with iron clad exit clauses if certain conditions are met (i.e. buyout clauses being near ubiquitous in football) as a result of collective bargaining and availability of advice from professional associations and/or unions.

    It's a bit of a catch-22 situation where the players who now have significant experience with these sorts of issues and could conceivably drive such an association are either unable to (due to existing long term contracts) or are now part of the money chain in those organisations and are financially disincentivised to do so (e.g. the core Astralis players).

  14. Post
    #14
    for in-depth views on this.. Richard Lewis and "Thorin" have their views on them. Very long and in-depth. This has been out for a couple weeks now.

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    #15
    ok , just listened to Thorinn , Richard Lewis and read the player blogs and press releases.

    PEA was formed on the basis of player involvement, transparency, larger prize and a flexible player movement ( there was no exclusive league requirement but discretion was from team owners and organizers as per contract) .

    ESL realizing that PEA wanted to replace their NA league, went behind and managed to scare the players who already were in those teams to go over their own team owners. And then the players like Scoots despite SIGNING their contracts turn around and say Nope It is not my fault i am stupid / greedy / young etc i cannot be responsible for my own contract etc. You are correct, the players are young, dumb and they do not have a union. But guess what, that is THEIR responsibility to band together, make sure all players get a fair deal and also probably take a individual pay cut to make sure you get a fair deal. Did they ever do that? No , they did not, as Thorinn and Lewis pointed out, they just took the money offered, signed their rights away and also did not give 2 shits about other players.

    as Thorinn points out, it was never about player rights, remember, they never wanted their own union, they signed their deals purely for selfish reasons and more importantly they actually went against their own team owners. As Reginald pointed out seangares SIGNED AWAY most of his so called rights for MORE MONEY. Was he naive, maybe, was he stupid ? of course but now some of you actually think he is the victim or even the players?

    you are correct, PEA really ****ed themselves and the team owners really was stupid in NOT talking to their own players and not negotiating or communicating with their own players but still, the contract was signed. Did PEA go back on their promises? No. They did not. Did they oversell the ambiguity of how much power the players would have? Maybe. But if the players read the contracts, they would realized that they had an opinion but little or no leverage .

    Again Player unions are not the responsibility of the owners or even the organizers or the devs, it is up to the players. Are the players doing anything? Nope, cos they are young , dumb and greedy...

    end of the day they choose the less paying option, and have the same or even less say in their rights and also damaged their own credibility and the teams they are in.
    Last edited by Bloody; 13th January 2017 at 8:06 am.

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    #16
    Lest we forget that one of the guys who is involved with the PEA was also involved with CGS back in the day. We all know how that ended.

  17. Post
    #17
    And then the players like Scoots despite SIGNING their contracts turn around and say Nope It is not my fault i am stupid / greedy / young etc i cannot be responsible for my own contract etc. You are correct, the players are young, dumb and they do not have a union. But guess what, that is THEIR responsibility to band together, make sure all players get a fair deal and also probably take a individual pay cut to make sure you get a fair deal. Did they ever do that? No , they did not, as Thorinn and Lewis pointed out, they just took the money offered, signed their rights away and also did not give 2 shits about other players.
    Calling these players 'stupid / greedy / dumb' is ridiculous, these players are faced by an army of lawyers represented by the orgs and don't have the money / resources for a decent lawyer to represent themselves. Given the current situation it was inevitable that they were going to be screwed over by the fine print and they don't have the money to do anything about it.

    Unless every player was a trained, professional lawyer as well as a CS pro, telling the players to 'just read' a document filled with legalese and ambiguous language just won't work.

  18. Post
    #18
    Bloody wrote:
    And then the players like Scoots.
    Also, just a note: Scoots isn't a player, he's like 50+ and has been involved in eSports since its inception pretty much. He's seen the bubble pop countless times and is the person the players chose as their public voice

  19. Post
    #19
    when you say they were young ... how young? I mean if you're over 18 aren't you expected to know stuff like getting contracts checked before signing.

  20. Post
    #20
    Also, for those saying "well why don't they just make the union already?", no player wants to be the first to stick their necks out and face the orgs. The movie "Net worth" is a good example of this, showing what happened when the first NHL players stuck their necks out. The movie actually raises some other intresting issues about eSports, like what happens to the contracts of injured players? We've already seen players like Olofmeister get injured.



    Unsettled wrote:
    when you say they were young ... how young? I mean if you're over 18 aren't you expected to know stuff like getting contracts checked before signing.
    Most players don't have the money to hire a lawyer, not to mention some of the more untrustworthy orgs would pressure the players to sign whatever they put in front of them.

  21. Post
    #21
    again, if you want to be treated like an adult and a professional, you have to do the hard yards or be hopeful this all exists . If you do not, or as RL and T pointed out, some of them simply do not give a shit and that is pretty much their own fault.

  22. Post
    #22
    FFS, if you can't afford to have a lawyer look at a contract you have no business calling yourself professional. Alternately live in a dreamworld where the people who pay money for teams, must idolise players for their skills so much, that all their intentions will be altruistic and put the players first, now and forever.

  23. Post
    #23
    Unsettled wrote:
    FFS, if you can't afford to have a lawyer look at a contract you have no business calling yourself professional. Alternately live in a dreamworld where the people who pay money for teams, must idolise players for their skills so much, that all their intentions will be altruistic and put the players first, now and forever.
    ****, that's useful.

    Better not take up the offer of your dream job if you can't afford your own legal counsel to make sure you don't get ****ed by your new employer.

  24. Post
    #24
    It's called reality, you don't want to be ****ed over, wise up, and look after yourself.

  25. Post
    #25
    GaR wrote:
    ****, that's useful.

    Better not take up the offer of your dream job if you can't afford your own legal counsel to make sure you don't get ****ed by your new employer.
    Yup, there is always free legal counsel of varying effectiveness. Take a bit of responsibility and protect yourself. It is like ****ing and finally get that **** with that dream date you been jerking off over , use protection and take precautions. If not if you end up with your dick falling off, then don't come crying about how you did not know you were gonna get ****ed.