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  1. Post

    Posts in this thread appear as comments on the following Gameplanet article:

    Watch video...

  2. Post
    Now that is an interesting premise. I wont be playing this at launch, but I it will be my main March game... and maybe Mass Effect too.

  3. Post
    I wasn't a fan of Planescape Torment. It was hard to care about the story. They left the hook too late.

    That and I didn't like how picking/making your class happened.

    I'm hoping they improved on all that for this one. Because this does look like something I want to try.

  4. Post
    Planescape : Torment is considered to be one of the best RPGs of all time for a reason.
    The writing and character motivation is by far the best of any RPG ever made. Its complex and deep considerations of what a person actually is was revolutionary in the video game space.
    The fact that this translated not only to interactions in the game, but the very nature of your character and class was imho the smartest design choice of any RPG ever made. No other game comes even remotely close.
    Its was the first cRPG to move away from the dungeon crawler or combat centric nature that still dominates the genre. It was a character game, with a strong focus on personalities and interaction with other characters in the game.
    It's was not only revolutionary, it was one of the first games to elevate video games to not only an art form, but proved that the medium can more than just tell stories it can ask questions and leave an impression long after completion that goes beyond the mechanics and "game" elements its wrapped in. It was a game designed from the outset to subvert RPG norms. It's brilliant, but it is an interactive story not a level up and kill bigger monsters game. It has no big bad, or world ending threat. Its introspective and reflective. It was perhaps the bravest "mainstream" game to come out of the 90's in the PC space, because it was not what people expected. In many ways it went out of its way to be not what people wanted or expected from an RPG.

    Its the reason I will play any game that Chris Avellone is involved in. It's also my favourite game of all time

    If this can come close to that level of brilliance I will be very happy.
    Last edited by ChrisB; 13th February 2017 at 1:00 am. Reason: corrected first line.

  5. Post
    Planescape: Torment is considered by some to be the best RPG of all time.

    It's also never a good idea to value the opinion of someone who can't see anything to criticize.

    Quite literally the only reason I managed to play the game long enough to get myself a class was that I only had that one game installed on my computer at the time so it was either muddle through or be utterly bored. With the complete and utter lack of direction from "wake up" to "city deposit" to "class assignment" to "story hook"... it's understanding that only the most rabid of defenders would claim the game to be everything you claim it to be.

    The game had flaws. Major ones.

    They improve on those flaws? This will be a better game. They stick so closely to your vision of the game? It's going to be a pass for me.

    I enjoyed parts of it. But the slog in the beginning was just too painful for me to consider it more than "okay". It was likely an inspiration for many of the early "open world" games.

    And while I don't have anything against choices or freedom... I do want some sort of direction. Planescape: Torment utterly sucked at giving any direction for the first hour and a half of the game.

    You may enjoy that. And that's great for you. But others don't.

  6. Post
    Nerin wrote:
    Planescape: Torment is considered by MANY to be the best RPG of all time.
    It's also never a good idea to value the opinion of someone who can't see anything to criticize.
    I did notice a mistake in my post. Instead of "the best" it should be "one of the best". So that was my bad. That it is considered one of th best is undeniable. It is included in practically every "best of" list. The one thing they all pretty much agree on is the quality of the story, setting, writing, and characters.

    Can't see anything to criticize? Don't make assumptions. I merely pointed out the reasons I like it so much. There are plenty of minor issues, but as I said I was pointing out what I like about it. It wasn't a review or critique, so again dont assume anything.

    Stop thinking you actually know what my expectations are (for anything). Unless I explicitly say something you literally have nfi.

    You're not a fan of Ps:T. You're obviously entitled to that opinion, I have no issue with you not liking it. However this game was not made for you. It was literally made for fans of the original first and foremost. We backed it, we funded it, and we what we wanted was something that was seriously considered by the design team. Brian obviously wants it to sell well, so we'll see what that means for the final product.

    sucked at giving direction? You're either more dyslexic than I am, didn't bother to read what you were being told, or really bad at following instructions. The game is fairly open, but your motivations, and short term objectives are pretty clear. Baldur's Gate II, and Fallout 2 are far less direct in their directions. The game does not hold your hand, but anyone with a high school education shouldn't have any issues knowing which direction to head.

    As for what I actually want from the game. If it can provide the same depth of character driven choice, consequence, and depth all tied up in an interesting story with an atypical slant then I'll likely be fairly happy. that is assuming the mechanics are up to the task, and I have no reason to doubt the devs in this regard.

  7. Post
    Insults? Check.
    Exclusion? Check.
    Overly dramatic? Check.

    Guess what ChrisB, you're a rabid fan.

    Stop thinking you know what I think. Unless I explicitly say something you literally have nfi.

    I am, actually, dyslexic. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. I've also got two Masters Degrees under my belt, I assure you, I am more than high school educated. Your ridiculous and insulting implications are worthless, unneeded and unwanted. As all rabid fans, you are lashing out at anyone who had a different experience playing the game. Trying as hard as you can to make it a deficit in me rather than acknowledging the flaws in the game.

    How on Earth you expect things to improve without flaws being worked on, I'm not sure.

    Do you even remember the start of the game? You wake up in the mortuary and have to puzzle your way out while picking up your first pseudo companion. Then you make your way out, only to be dumped into a portion of the city hub. From there, your talking skull guide basically clams up. You run around aimlessly talking to just about everyone because there is no direction from that point. Then you move on to the next area of the city and aimlessly talk to just about everyone there because there is still no direction. And if you happen to run into the Mage class trainer, you might even find yourself unknowingly turning yourself into a mage without even realizing it just because you're running through all the dialogue options to try and find some direction. And if you don't want to be a mage, you're reloading. But if you haven't actually saved - because you didn't expect to need to save until there was some actual combat or threat to your character - you've got to run through it all again, talking to everyone again just in case some obscure conversation somewhere happens to be the trigger for some direction.

    That's the start of the game. Tell me, where is the direction? I'm assuming here, so you may well yell at me again and call me stupid, but I assume you remember the game you are so bent on defending against any criticism. So can you remember where the direction is?

    Baldur's Gate II had direction. You start out going through the training, and then when you get shunted out of the Dungeon you have a clear goal. Find Imoen. You are approached with an offer. Get 10000 gold and people will give you information. Your goal is to gather as much gold as you can so you can buy that information. Fastest way to do that is quests. The city is full of them, go to it.

    Fallout 2 I admit I can't remember as well. It, like Planescape: Torment, wasn't my favorite. But for other reasons.

    Now, if you can get past the insulting me and the rabid defense... could you explain to me the direction the game gave? When it arrived?

  8. Post
    Nerin wrote:
    Insults? Check.
    Exclusion? Check.
    Overly dramatic? Check.

    Guess what ChrisB, you're a rabid fan.
    Now you're just being stupid.

  9. Post
    Nerin wrote:
    Do you even remember the start of the game? You wake up in the mortuary and have to puzzle your way out while picking up your first pseudo companion. Then you make your way out, only to be dumped into a portion of the city hub. From there, your talking skull guide basically clams up. You run around aimlessly talking to just about everyone because there is no direction from that point.
    There was no insult, so calm down. My points stand. Either you have trouble reading (even more than I do, and I do struggle even to this day), didn't follow the instructions and hints given in game, or you didn't bother to read the instructions at all. It seems the latter might be the problem, as you seem to be complaining about the requirement to talk to NPCs. Which is literally a major part of every RPG ever made, and an even bigger part of Ps:T.
    Rabid defense? Try actually reading what I wrote. There is nothing rabid about it.

    Do you actually want everything sign posted? Because that would defeat the purpose of playing the game. If it is not something you want to do maybe you're more of an aRPG fan. Which is fine, but if that is the case many of your issues aren't with the game, but the genre itself it would seem. Ps:T has problems mechanically, but how the critical path is executed is not one of them.

    As for if I remember how the game starts. Of course I do. I have replayed the game many many times.
    After picking up Morte (who is not a "pseudo companion" but a full member of your party with a story arc and impressive combat skills), reading your tattoos, talking to Deoinarra, and eventually escaping the Mortuary (all actually sign-posted for you) you open up in the Sigil. From here talking to ANY npc will direct you to the nearest signpost for more info on the city and a couple of clues about where to head next (hint a tavern/bar are good for rumours and info). Alternatively if you talk to any of the Harlots and they will literally tell you to go to Ragpickers Sqaure. In fact almost every single thing you need to find you will be directed to by talking to characters. Hell, the Gathering Dust Bar is right below you when you first enter the city.

    I really have no idea what your issue is. Are you complaining about the game requiring you to actually interact with NPC's in order to help unlock the various mysteries? That's like complaining that you need to press the mouse button in order to fire a weapon and kill enemies in a shooter. You are given plenty of clues, about where to head next if you actually talk to NPC's. The game is primarily about having conversations with NPC's. Now, if that's not your bag I get it. You will likely really hate this game. But as someone who play RPGs for the interactive story its why I like it as much as I do this game is unparalleled. In fact the thing people highlight about the game its its story and how it offers a fresh take on role-playing.
    It seems to me that your issue is the type of game this is. For that reason alone I feel you will not like the new one which has a much higher word count than Planescape (Ps:t 800,000 vs TToN: 1,100,000+).
    Most of which will need to be read after entering a conversation with an NPC.
    Maybe Fallout 4, or Skyrim are more up your alley. Where the role-playing is more about where you go, killing enemies, and travelling to the next quest marker.

  10. Post

    anyone with a high school education shouldn't have any issues knowing which direction to head
    Wasn't an insult when taken in the context of me stating that the game didn't give enough direction? I mean... I assumed that you were talking about that. So perhaps the problem is on my end. Perhaps you are right and I have trouble reading. Maybe that insult is actually a compliment?


    You're also wrong. About everything you assumed about me. Literally, everything.

    I love RPGs. Specifically for the stories. I'm the guy when played Pillars of Eternity and after receiving the ability to translate the runes near the end of Act II, went back through all the previous areas looking for runes that I couldn't translate before. Because I crave a good story. I crave the glorious scrawlings that make up the pitted history of these worlds. I savor them.

    Now, you can continue to imply unflattering things about my intellect and my reading ability. But you'll still be wrong.

    I didn't complain that I had to talk to NPCs. I complained that there was no direction even after talking to the NPCs. There is a difference, but judging from your posts, subtleties like that are lost on you.

    Bottom line: Someone who loves RPGs, possibly even more than you, found Planescape: Torment to be lacking rather drastically in the first bit of the game. Roughly an hour and a half, to two hours, into the game... Things started looking up after that.

    If you can't handle that... that's entirely your problem.

    If you can't deal with it without resorting to petty implied insults... that's still your problem.

    I'm glad you enjoyed it. It wasn't up to scratch for me. Whether that's because my standards are too high, or I'm a snob, or I just didn't "get it" in the way you did... It doesn't matter. I would prefer if they improved on that part of the game. The start is important. I'd like to see more people playing this kind of game. But I believe that some people were put off by the same thing that caused problems for me. The start of the game.

  11. Post
    Yes, anyone with a highschool eductation. e.i. anyone that is able to read with ease should have no problem with this game.
    It's that simple. There is no insult, either implied or stated.

    "I complained that there was no direction even after talking to the NPCs" this is demonstrably untrue as its how you actually play the game and gather information. Claiming lack of direction when you are unable to see it even when its provided is YOUR issue not the game.

    Funny how the only person I have ever seen complain about this is you. Just you. Whereas the most common comments about the game are about the high quality of the writing and interesting/compelling quests.

    So again, your failure. Own it, or move on. Pointing the finger at the game at this point is just silly. .

    If I actually wanted to insult you, I would. You being so wounded by a comment is interesting, but certainly not my intent. So I am sorry for any offense.


  12. Post
    When you're in an echo chamber, ChrisB, you'll hear echoes.

  13. Post
    Are you claiming I surround myself with only like minded people?
    Lol! Sure thing. Maybe you should take a few minutes and try a reality check.

    I'll even help.

    wikipedia wrote:
    Criticism of the game was minimal and problems were generally described as minor, but included complaints about long load times on computers of the day, or the game slowing down during combat. Bugs were responsible for slowing down the game when a high level of graphical assets were on-screen at the same time, but it was reported that a fix was released that solved the problem. Allgame's Derek Williams considered the game's combat simplistic (with a comparison to Diablo), which made the game too easy.The most negative major review came from Eurogamer, who gave the game seven out of ten (and later increased it to eight when the game was patched). Their reviewer expressed distaste at the immortality of the player character, saying that it made the lives of characters "cheap and meaningless", although other reviews welcomed this aspect, saying it was "implemented perfectly" and did not make the game easier. Eurogamer also disapproved of the amount of experience that was awarded for certain dialogues later in the game. However, other reviews cited this as one of the main things that elevated Planescape: Torment above the standard RPG format.Some reviewers also criticized the game's pathfinding AI as being "less than impressive".

    Ian Williams of Paste rated the game #1 on his list of "The 10 Greatest Dungeons and Dragons Videogames" in 2015.

    Planescape: Torment was given several Editor's Choice awards, was named RPG of the Year for 1999 by both GameSpot and Computer Gaming World, and won the Vault Network's Game of the Year for 1999. PC Gamer US named Planescape: Torment "Game of the Month" in their March 2000 issue (the issue in which the game's review appeared). It has since attracted a cult following, and continues to garner respect long after its release—in 2004, GameSpy added it to their Hall of Fame, and in 2005 GameSpot declared it one of its greatest games of all time. In 2007, IGN named it 71st on their list of the Top 100 Games of All Time, stating that many have "had their ideas of what an RPG is completely revamped after playing this one". In 2008, the UK edition of PC Gamer rated it ninth on its own Top 100 list.

    In 2006, The A.V. Club included Planescape: Torment in their list of "11 of Video Gaming's Strangest Moments", due to the game's use of death as a means to advance the plot, In 2006, Gamasutra polled video game industry professionals with the question: "Which role playing game over the entire history of the genre do you think has made the biggest 'quantum leap', and why?". Planescape: Torment was ranked second overall after Fallout, earning it a "Quantum Leap Award". The game also received an honorable mention for the same awards in the "Storytelling" category. In December 2008, IGN listed it as 8th out of 10 in a list of "Franchises We Want Resurrected" and praised the game as having "some of the best writing and characterization seen in gaming".

    In 2009, Bit-tech included Planescape: Torment on their list of "30 PC Games to Play Before You Die". Chris Avellone was awarded Eurogamer's "Gaming Globe" award for Best Designer in 2000 for his work on Planescape: Torment, and The Nameless One was considered to be the Best Male Lead Character. In 2009, Game Informer put the game 188th on their list of "The Top 200 Games of All Time", saying that it "allowed players to ... influence the plot to an unheard-of degree for 1999". In 2010, UGO ranked it as #5 on the list of games needing a sequel. A 2011 update of PC Gamer magazine's top 100 PC games of all-time ranked Planescape: Torment as the 19th greatest PC game.
    Awards wrote:
    Computer Gaming World RPG of the Year (1999)
    GameSpot RPG of the Year (1999)
    IGN Vault Network Game of the Year (1999)
    Eurogamer Best Male Lead Character (2000)
    PC Gamer US Game of the Month (2000)
    GameSpy Hall of Fame (2004)
    GameSpot Greatest Games of All Time (2005)
    Gamasutra Quantum Leap Award (2006)
    IGN 71st in the Top 100 Games of All Time (2007)
    PC Gamer 9th in the Top 100 Games of All Time (2008)
    Game Informer 188th in the Top 200 Games of All Time (2009)
    Bit-tech 30 PC Games to Play Before You Die (2009)
    PC Gamer Best RPG of All Time (2015)
    Overall Metacritic Critic score 91.
    User Score 92.

    Obviously taste is subjective. The issue I have is only in your justification for that, or more accurately blaming a fault in the game, where no actually exists.
    I know a few people who really don't like Dark Souls because its too difficult for them. At least for the most part they can admit the fault is their own, but there is one who still claim its "poor design".

    But in all fairness I don't think for a second this game is too hard for you, you've never struck me as anything less than intelligent (even if I disagree with you about a lot of things), but for whatever reason you missed or overlooked some content, clues, and/or direction. I would suggest giving it another look. I have no doubt that you'd easily find the clues and directions you missed the first time. God knows there have been games that I was just not in the right headspace for, and didn't like, only to find them really enjoyable years later.

  14. Post
    I am well aware of the acclaim the game has.

    That doesn't prove anything beyond that the game is praised by a lot of people.

    People who enjoyed the game and don't see the faults will... praise the game and not expound on its faults. It's not a great leap of logic there.

    Try reading what other people think. Look at point number 4. A 0.47 second Google of "planescape torment slow at the start", first hit. I'll quote it here:

    4. The game flows a bit slow in the beginning.
    I'm talking about the first part of the game, after you leave the mortuary and enter the first part of the city, shaped like a donut and consisting of four areas.
    Again, this is purely from a gaming point of view. Story wise, it makes perfect sense to feel a bit lost in the beginning. But this deterred quite a few players from playing further. It's hard to make a decision here. At first, I was convinced that this should be changed, but looking back from the end of the game, it's perfect the way it is... story wise.
    Many players don't know where to start at this point and lose interest. Story wise, this is brilliant. Games usually take you by the hand and give you a reason to go on, but PST requires you to bring a certain drive to unravel your mysteries with you. It just leaves you there, just as confused as your character and with only some vague clues where to go and what to do.
    You're there trying to make out that I'm the only one in the world with the specific issue of the game being slow and directionless at the start. I am not the only one. There are many people who dislike that about Planescape: Torment.

    The author of that post tries to spin it as a positive by saying the story needs to be slow and confusing at the start. But I dn't think it needed that, story wise. I believe there are a number of better ways to handle it.

    It won't really matter, though, will it? I mean... if I feed you link after link of things you can easily Google for yourself... you're still not going to believe me. I'm not sure if it is because you have so much of the game - or more likely the genre and the game is touted as the best in the genre - invested in your self-image that you refuse to accept the flaws (and I'm not just talking about the weak combat, or the dated graphics, I'm talking about flaws in the writing and the pacing) or if it is just stubbornness.

    You're not going to believe me no matter what I say. Because you are convinced that the game is not flawed in that way, and that I'm just some guy who can't get over himself.

    And I've just talked myself out of responding to you about this again. Because what is the point if you were already convinced I was wrong, before I even posted in the thread?

  15. Post
    Ok, please go back and actually ****ing read.
    I have never stated its flawless. Its not, but the fact you keep making this claim is moronic. There are plenty of issues.

    As for your quote, please go back and read it again. Because it only partially backs you up. You even try to use the quote and then claim that all the parts in it you don't like by "trying to spin it".
    Also hard to "make a decision", and "don't know where to start" are not the same thing as
    Nerin wrote:
    no direction even after talking to the NPCs
    , because once you do "make a decision", or "start" you are given clues, and points to investigate, these provide the direction. Which AGAIN is the only point I am making.

    So stop trying to make this about something else, and certainly don't make claims about me not seeing the flaws. Your issue as is VERY clearly seen just by reading this thread is that you refuse to admit that the issue you have is of your own making, or at least not actually paying attention.

    Not a single thing you've posted actually backs up your claims. Everything from "leaving the hook too late" to "no direction even after talking to the NPCs". Because the game actually reveals things if you bother to look for them.
    If the game didn't compel you to do that, then it obviously did not resonate with you. And that was obviously a flaw or issue for you. And if that's what you stated there would be no issue. The issue is claims of things not being done, when they actually are.

    To me it seems you using "flaw" in the place of personal preference, and if you had framed it as such then this conversation would have been considerably shorter. but even the quote you used to shine a light on this "flaw" contradicts you.
    I was convinced that this should be changed, but looking back from the end of the game, it's perfect the way it is... story wise.
    My first response in here, was not a criticism, it was simply a counter point to you. For some reason you then jump in all combative, like I was in some way attacking you or your opinion. When I was simply stating my own.

    Now if you said you just didn't like the way the game opens up in the early stages, where it definitely plays on the amnesia and confusion of the Nameless One. then we'd be cool, I personally thinks it's fantastic way to set the tone, and bring some of the PC's state to the player. I can also see how it could be daunting, or even off-putting. But once you actually take steps to move forward the path is shown. If a player doesn't want to take those steps, then the game has potentially failed to engage the player, or the game is simply not in the players wheelhouse. But that's not what you said. Hell you've pretty even admitted you weren't playing attention to what's being said in the game, or at least no caring about what you're doing.
    find yourself unknowingly turning yourself into a mage without even realizing it just because you're running through all the dialogue options to try and find some direction
    . That just reads like not paying attention, or just going through the motions to me.

    You are right though this conversation is not going to go anywhere. And you attempting to misrepresent me as some irrational fanboy who refuses to see fault certainly isn't helping.

    But I do thank you for your patience, and 99% civil replies. I do hope that TToN resonates more for you, just as I hope it keeps the core tenants of the original. In the end its a completely different development team, so I expect that it will be a very different experience when compared to Ps:T.