Results 501 to 519 of 519

  1. Post
    refused wrote:


    There's now real discussion about basic income and with the upcoming Swiss referendum, I thought I'd bring it up here.


    http://www.weforum.org/events/world-...d-without-work

    For a time it looked like NZ was simply a testing ground for testing new economic concepts (rogernomics, gst) due to our smaller sample size. Would it be in our interest to make an attempt at basic income, considering the large wealth gap we're already experiencing?

    Or should we just change the flag?
    thanks for sharing!

  2. Post
    Cut it out Sarah.

  3. Post
    Unsettled wrote:
    NECRO!

    Maybe we should have a maximum income, set it and take everything above that as tax, would help pay the basic income. Stop having Elon Musks, Bill Gates of the world.
    or do what they do in some Scandinavian countries and tax everyones income at 51-60% remove all other taxes & get free dental, medical, education etc. Then also give everyone a fine based on a set percentage of disposable income. Ie someone with 100,000 disposable income is fined 10% of this & someone with $5,000 disposable income has the same 10% fine. Thus creating fairness based on what they earn & no millionaires getting a $200 fine.

  4. Post
    I'd imagine the rich would get quite creative in hiding their wealth. Same as usual I suppose

  5. Post
    TestHeckle wrote:
    or do what they do in some Scandinavian countries and tax everyones income at 51-60% remove all other taxes & get free dental, medical, education etc. Then also give everyone a fine based on a set percentage of disposable income. Ie someone with 100,000 disposable income is fined 10% of this & someone with $5,000 disposable income has the same 10% fine. Thus creating fairness based on what they earn & no millionaires getting a $200 fine.

    and that is not going well for them now: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-welfare-state. Same with their prison systems, things are not going very well any more.

  6. Post
    Things are not going well for anyone, they are still doing better than most, which is the problem as it makes them a target for migrants with rising population without rising per capita income ultimatly means you have to keep raising taxes just to stand still.

  7. Post
    HellToupee wrote:
    Things are not going well for anyone, they are still doing better than most, which is the problem as it makes them a target for migrants with rising population without rising per capita income ultimatly means you have to keep raising taxes just to stand still.
    it is the very generous benefit system and political system etc which makes them attractive for economic migrants tho. I mean no migrant want to move to parts of eastern europe or china etc lol.

  8. Post


    Well worth a watch about the economics of UBI, and the very real job loss projections from various industries being automated.

  9. Post
    i do like the idea, and do agree with muchness of what he is saying particularly with the complete fix of corporate tax ( that will never happen without a massive revolutionary change in congress or even in our small country as corporate own democracies or republics ) .

    that will be the first real battle to get this done, trying to VAT Amazon, Google or Apple etc. I cannot see any current government winning this. Only China might get this done because of their authoritarian state but USA etc? No way. Worst you can also see the first country who does this will get everyone else trying to get in as people love free shit.

    also you can see the Media role in this Armageddon tho. And you can also see how so many in our forums is influenced by the same Media...and we cannot even talk about it..

    Another problem is exactly what he says tho, it is all margins. As multiple people has pointed out, the idea that those margins will remain the same will not survive the overall impact of UIB . I can see people giving up on life as you get paid to exist in this society. i guess we should start buying stock in big pharma as the general population starts getting crazier and crazier..

    i agree tho, it is the men in general that will suffer the most from this automation, men as a whole as several studies shown, define their life , role and existence on doing stuff and contributing to family, work or stuff. Taking work from them, usually means depression, suicide, death , crime etc. Women are far more adaptable mentally etc , men .. not so much. The suicide rates of men, being 3-4 times more than women do agree with this.

    lastly i think he should go nuts on the Multi nationals. He will get way more votes if he goes all frothing in the mouth vs the multi nationals. Good JRE episode, the Tim Cast one was good too

  10. Post
    This just came out a few days ago by the way:
    The Finnish experiment

    Looking at it I'm a bit disapointed in the choice of the cases actually. They've focussed exclusively on the unemployed, and whether or not UBI would increase the employment numbers. I'm far more interested in the affect on the currently employed, to both better understand what would happen in terms of bludging (for want of a better term), and entrepreneurship.

  11. Post
    yeah my take on it is that there is always a certain % of a population who will not do anything , tho not necessarily permanently, or will just do the minimum to get by and little else. That % probably is already in the unemployed % and so UBI wont change anything.

  12. Post
    I don't think UBI will work. I see the reason behind the idea for it, but I just don't think it will work. It doesn't make sense to pay your customers, which is effectively what will happen.

    i agree tho, it is the men in general that will suffer the most from this automation, men as a whole as several studies shown, define their life , role and existence on doing stuff and contributing to family, work or stuff. Taking work from them, usually means depression, suicide, death , crime etc. Women are far more adaptable mentally etc , men .. not so much. The suicide rates of men, being 3-4 times more than women do agree with this.
    With a large enough UBI you could replace "work" for more fulfilling activities. Learning new skills (an instrument, a martial art, reading, writing, DIY, woodwork, etc...). There are an unlimited amount of skills and hobbies that would work far better at improving ones well being and sense of personal development than working an alienating job . But that will only work if they have a UBI large enough to fund that lifestyle. There is also the possibility of part-time or volunteer work in areas of interest.

    But again, I don't think UBI will work from an economic standpoint. With AI automation we face a very real predicament.

  13. Smile
    s0cks wrote:
    But again, I don't think UBI will work from an economic standpoint. With AI automation we face a very real predicament.
    From an economic stand point we just need to change the idea of money.

    from early on i think they changed money to things like coins and notes, Later they introduced decimal currency,
    Now we just need money to evolve yet again, Just don't ask me how as i wouldn't have a clue.

    As for AI automation, I think the workplace evolves too, There's still going to be jobs, Just different kinds instead of traditional 9-5.

  14. Post
    Magic Robertson wrote:
    From an economic stand point we just need to change the idea of money.

    from early on i think they changed money to things like coins and notes, Later they introduced decimal currency,
    Now we just need money to evolve yet again, Just don't ask me how as i wouldn't have a clue.

    As for AI automation, I think the workplace evolves too, There's still going to be jobs, Just different kinds instead of traditional 9-5.
    Yeah I dunno. It surely requires a change in economics. It's always been the case that labour works with capital, but automation turns that on it's head. It's all very well to say there will be other types of jobs, but that's an empty statement. Arguably the rise of automation in primary industries has already created a swath of disenfranchised citizens who can only find low level service jobs. And there is evidence that suggests number of job hours available is in decline (an increasing number people unable to get full time hours, and the rise of the precariat).

  15. Smile
    s0cks wrote:
    And there is evidence that suggests number of job hours available is in decline (an increasing number people unable to get full time hours, and the rise of the precariat).
    I thought that was the point of the UBI, We get what we basically need and any extra comes from the various work we get whether it's full time or not.

    Bit like the unemployment benefit atm, Beneficiaries aren't really supposed to get rich or anything and if work is available we have to take it.

    The UBI just means we don't get pushed so much into any work and have a bit more freedom in what we choose to do.

    The economics around it though, Maybe the poor benefit from the UBI and the demise of "wealth", and the rich get screwed. (I really don't mind, I absolutely hate billionaires)

  16. Post
    Magic Robertson wrote:
    I thought that was the point of the UBI, We get what we basically need and any extra comes from the various work we get whether it's full time or not.

    Bit like the unemployment benefit atm, Beneficiaries aren't really supposed to get rich or anything and if work is available we have to take it.

    The UBI just means we don't get pushed so much into any work and have a bit more freedom in what we choose to do.

    The economics around it though, Maybe the poor benefit from the UBI and the demise of "wealth", and the rich get screwed. (I really don't mind, I absolutely hate billionaires)
    The point is that available work will be decreasing, so the opportunity to live beyond a basic income will shrink. And I doubt the majority of people will be happy with only the basic lifestyle a basic income provides. It's just not going to work.

  17. Post
    s0cks wrote:
    The point is that available work will be decreasing, so the opportunity to live beyond a basic income will shrink. And I doubt the majority of people will be happy with only the basic lifestyle a basic income provides. It's just not going to work.
    Which is why VR needs to step up and sort it out. get everyone hooked in and let (poor) people live in in real squalor while enjoying virtual paradise. Start piping / droning in sustenance for them and they will never have to leave their box.

    All of societies ills will be solved.

    (Although my post is somewhat tongue and cheek, i'm 100% serious in believing that VR could be a solution to these upcoming societal problems)

  18. Post
    s0cks wrote:
    I don't think UBI will work. I see the reason behind the idea for it, but I just don't think it will work. It doesn't make sense to pay your customers, which is effectively what will happen.
    What happens when the consumer base falls away?

  19. Post
    Bullion wrote:
    What happens when the consumer base falls away?
    Neo-fuedalism.