A thread to discuss how Jacinda will make NZ Choice again

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  1. Post
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    What difference does that make? I know several teachers personally but I don't say this to them because they'd probably scratch my eyes out.
    Only that you would interact with teachers more often if you had kids.

  2. Post
    kierbear wrote:
    I can't think of a single performance metric that would lead to low decile schools having the means to hire the best "performing" teachers, disadvantaging the students.
    Wouldn't it be the other way around? Lower decile schools get more funding plus it would be easier to get a performance bonus e.g. increasing the average score from 50% to 60% is easier than getting it from 80% to 90%.

  3. Post
    gneiss wrote:
    Only that you would interact with teachers more often if you had kids.
    Zarkov has two adult kids, one of which was constantly in trouble, and he was deeply involved the the school sport program. I prefer his experience to yours.

  4. Post
    I don't have kids but when I was at college there was one social studies teacher who spent the entire lesson playing computer games and going on about how no other job had so many days of holiday a year...

  5. Post
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    Zarkov has two adult kids, one of which was constantly in trouble, and he was deeply involved the the school sport program. I prefer his experience to yours.
    His experience comes from 20?+ years ago though right? Things have changed. I’d take him my old Austin 1300 for a lookover and fix up, but I wouldn’t take him my new Tesla.

  6. Post
    They both have 4 wheels.

    Point being I doubt that much has changed.

    You can bring me your Tesla, I'd like to have a go driving it.

  7. Post
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    They both have 4 wheels.
    And the word school is still spelled the same way. How they work is quite different.

  8. Post
    I don’t have a Tesla btw, the infrastructure install at my current home is too hard.

  9. Post
    model3 should be orderable soon in NZ.... tempting....

  10. Post
    Edward Diego wrote:
    Is it? I quite like the idea that my pay is based on my efforts.
    Theres plenty of research showing performance based pay has a net negative effect on the workplace/organisation.

    Its usually far too easy to manipulate, often focuses on short term profit/sales and goals to the detriment of long term goals, usually focuses on quantity rather than quality.

  11. Post
    There's plenty of evidence that communism failed

  12. Post
    TatonkaBill wrote:
    Theres plenty of research showing performance based pay has a net negative effect on the workplace/organisation.

    Its usually far too easy to manipulate, often focuses on short term profit/sales and goals to the detriment of long term goals, usually focuses on quantity rather than quality.
    I haven't worked at a company where pay wasn't "performance based" to some degree, in that my boss pays me according to my performance. If I'm not performing I'm not going to get a pay increase, if I'm performing well I can justify asking for a pay increase.

  13. Post
    Performance based pay relies upon the belief that you can quantify performance, but for many industries that's still difficult to impossible. Should software engineers be compensated on bugs fixed (no, I can just make bugs in order to fix them), lines of code written (no, I can just artificially pad things out), hours of overtime (nothing stopping me sitting on my arse all day) or even maybe features shipped (encourages me to focus on cramming out lots of small useless features instead of large useful ones)? Should miners be compensated based on the volume of gold they've extracted in a day (no, as who knows if you'll strike a seam)?

    If you can unambiguously quantify performance then maybe you can make an argument for it, but there's a reason we're all mostly wage/salary slaves in industries with something that looks like pay bands. We know that the learning performance of kids is massively influenced by their home life, and my guess is that none of us have a good suggestion for what teacher performance looks like other than: kids getting good grades. So performance based pay for teachers means decile 1 teachers will be punished because they're teaching in poor communities, in turn keeping good teachers from those communities and ensuring they stay poor. Feelsbadman.

  14. Post
    I was told by woman who used to be teacher that she would get a bonus/pay increase of some sort by working in lower decile schools. If thats true then your narrative is blown out the water. Still, Im working on second hand info.

  15. Post
    frio wrote:
    Performance based pay relies upon the belief that you can quantify performance, but for many industries that's still difficult to impossible. Should software engineers be compensated on bugs fixed (no, I can just make bugs in order to fix them), lines of code written (no, I can just artificially pad things out), hours of overtime (nothing stopping me sitting on my arse all day) or even maybe features shipped (encourages me to focus on cramming out lots of small useless features instead of large useful ones)? Should miners be compensated based on the volume of gold they've extracted in a day (no, as who knows if you'll strike a seam)?
    So I’ll just use the way my old company worked as an example of how (I think) it can be good. My bonus was broken into several sections. Company performance took 25-50%. Team performance took a chunk, and my performance finished it off. % changed year on year. The goals were set and agreed on at a performance review. If I was going to be working on a big project, we agreed on goals around that project for the majority of the bonus that I could influence. We had KPIs based around if we did part or none or all of the individual bits. So I might get 100% on a chunk that made up 15% of the bonus, but only 50% of part that made up 10% of the bonus due to whatever reason. It all crunched through and resulted in a bonus that was fair and agreed upon months before the work was done.

    Not sure how it would work for teachers, but it worked well for us. Maybe a National Party education portfolio from a few years back when it was proposed would aid the discussion?

  16. Post
    swazi wrote:
    I was told by woman who used to be teacher that she would get a bonus/pay increase of some sort by working in lower decile schools. If thats true then your narrative is blown out the water. Still, Im working on second hand info.
    That isn't performance based pay though. If you introduce a bonus or increased pay packet large enough to offset the negative effects of performance based pay, then... why bother with performance based pay in the first place?

    gneiss wrote:
    So Iíll just use the way my old company worked as an example of how (I think) it can be good. My bonus was broken into several sections. Company performance took 25-50%. Team performance took a chunk, and my performance finished it off. % changed year on year. The goals were set and agreed on at a performance review. If I was going to be working on a big project, we agreed on goals around that project for the majority of the bonus that I could influence. We had KPIs based around if we did part or none or all of the individual bits. So I might get 100% on a chunk that made up 15% of the bonus, but only 50% of part that made up 10% of the bonus due to whatever reason. It all crunched through and resulted in a bonus that was fair and agreed upon months before the work was done.

    Not sure how it would work for teachers, but it worked well for us. Maybe a National Party education portfolio from a few years back when it was proposed would aid the discussion?
    Yeah, we've done similar things. Problems pop up when you agree goals around, for instance, the completion of a project -- and then that project gets canned for reasons outside of your control. Suddenly your team and personal KPIs and therefore remuneration are shot because the customer fired the company due to the actions of another team or management or etc. In the end our company just gave up and went back to setting bonuses based on overall company performance. Software's... hard.

    I'm not saying that performance based pay can't work, for what it's worth; there must be industries and designs where it can. The problem is designing a performance-based pay system that's actually fair, resistant to scamming and takes into account the unique environment you're in. If your remuneration is based heavily on the performance of others, for instance, you're probably in trouble. I know for a fact I'm good at what I do and a valuable asset to my employer, but if you had to actually write down some metrics that quantify that it'd be hard to do.

  17. Post
    sorceror wrote:
    model3 should be orderable soon in NZ.... tempting....
    I'd rather do an electric conversion of an old car.

  18. Post
    Meanwhile, migration is up on last year with nearly 70k people.

    https://www.interest.co.nz/news/9967...109-year-march

    So another broken promise from the govt. One term govt written all over these jokers

  19. Post
    bradc wrote:
    I'd rather do an electric conversion of an old car.
    I've got a mate who's been converting an old car for almost a decade now. You'd really want it to be a classic to justify the effort, but the classics weigh more so need even more work.

    The Hyundai Konas look nice. 400km range and a proper water-cooled battery (unlike the leafs) for $40k, yes please.

  20. Post
    Oh I wouldn't do it myself, I'm a mechanical idiot. But something like a 70s Porsche or old Landy.

  21. Post
    Why does performance need to be quantifiable? Mine is purely at the judgment of the partners at our firm. It's pretty clear who is a top performer and who isnt most of the time.

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk

  22. Post
    threatD wrote:
    Why does performance need to be quantifiable? Mine is purely at the judgment of the partners at our firm. It's pretty clear who is a top performer and who isnt most of the time.

    Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk
    Because if you're an OIA-able publicly funded and accounted-for institution, giving teachers more or less pay based on a manager's feels isn't going to fly. Realistically the way teachers get paid needs a significant re-think because expecting anyone to get by on $45k in Auckland is ****ed, whereas $45k in Te Awamutu's probably not the end of the world, regardless of the demands about class sizes.

    If there's a legitimately fair way to provide performance based pay to teachers, I'm all ears, and I'm sure many of them are too.

  23. Post
    frio wrote:
    Because if you're an OIA-able publicly funded and accounted-for institution, giving teachers more or less pay based on a manager's feels isn't going to fly. Realistically the way teachers get paid needs a significant re-think because expecting anyone to get by on $45k in Auckland is ****ed, whereas $45k in Te Awamutu's probably not the end of the world, regardless of the demands about class sizes.

    If there's a legitimately fair way to provide performance based pay to teachers, I'm all ears, and I'm sure many of them are too.
    Most firms have a bonus pool system, not a bottomless pit.

  24. Post
    threatD wrote:
    Most firms have a bonus pool system, not a bottomless pit.
    The source of money isn't the issue, it's accounting for it to the public. If someone OIAs the salaries of teachers (which they can do), then divergences across regions based on "their manager said they were good" won't hold up well to scrutiny.

  25. Post
    Anyone checked the scope of the Royal commission of inquiry? Quite interesting. I admit I do not know enough about the whole process to know if its severely limited.

    At least were having one. John Howard said they'd have one and then spent 10 years blocking it. Soo. There'll be very few people left alive who were inside the cafe with a good recall of events.