England Tour New Zealand 2018

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  1. Post
    signman wrote:
    Well, the rest of the openers in domestic cricket must be shite then, need more than a very restricted player like Raval as opener, we need another opener like Latham who plays spin & pace well & can actually work the ****in' ball into gaps to keep the score ticking over.
    Gus like Tom Latham don't grow on trees. He was a star throughout youth cricket, and as I mentioned would be in the top 6 openers in the world most likely.

    Most teams seem to only have one good opener.

    Opening is a profession unto itself.

    Based on current form, England would probably trade you either of Cook or Stoneman for Latham.

  2. Post
    Latham and Raval are both averaging 38, so right now we do have two of them. Tom has had plenty of low series like the one Raval had and has got out so many times to soft dismissals. No hurry to get rid of Raval at all.

  3. Post
    Lovely Trenty to replace Raval?


  4. Post
    331 runs at 55 for a guy batting 7 who is supposedly the 'dumbest sportsperson' to ever represent NZ.

    "Colin de Grandhomme: Two mature, fighting test innings at Christchurch saw him go to the next level after a poor run in the ODIs. If only he could find 10kmh with the ball he'd be the ideal allrounder, but gets plenty of ticks for now and sets up a cracking duel with Corey Anderson next summer."

    Wtf. We literally have THREE bowlers bowling 135. We do not need four. 125k gives a lot of guys trouble - especially if he's moving it which he was doing, he was unlucky not to have more wickets in chch. Philander's average pace in the Aussie series was 127k...

    Corey Anderson averages 27 with the bat and bats 5 or 6, it's not even a contest. CdG looks comfortable out there batting.
    Last edited by <N>; 5th April 2018 at 2:54 pm.

  5. Post
    Yep. It is the swing / deviation that gets them. Much like James Franklin in his prime.

  6. Post
    As N pointed out the other day, CdG just needs to work on that first 3-4 over period in ODI's so he doesn't brainfart trying to smack it before he gets his eye in. I think some really weak early dismissals have contributed to that perception of being dumb but he just needs to tweak his approach a bit.

  7. Post
    wrighty wrote:
    Gus like Tom Latham don't grow on trees. He was a star throughout youth cricket, and as I mentioned would be in the top 6 openers in the world most likely.

    Most teams seem to only have one good opener.

    Opening is a profession unto itself.

    Based on current form, England would probably trade you either of Cook or Stoneman for Latham.
    Well, not a fan of plodders, Raval defence isn't that great & has a pretty slow scoring rate, find the bloke a painful watch... surely can't be that difficult to find another opener that's more solid in defence & can score a bit more freely, theses are just basics of the game.

  8. Post
    <N> wrote:
    Wtf. We literally have THREE bowlers bowling 135. We do not need four. 125k gives a lot of guys trouble - especially if he's moving it which he was doing, he was unlucky not to have more wickets in chch. Philander's average pace in the Aussie series was 127k...
    Not entirely untrue, but a bit of a bung comparison. Philander isn't quick, but is arguably the most skillful pace bowler in the world in terms of control of line, length and seam positioning. Probably the closest bowler to Glenn McGrath this generation, and not even in the same realm of bowling as CdG who is a military medium pacer.

    He doesn't necessarily need to find more pace, although I do think a little more... anything would be welcome. Agree that he is definitely the number 1 all-rounder and has earned his spot for sure, but if he could even skid the ball on a bit more he would be more dangerous. Has all the potential to be our own Ryan ten Doeschate.

    signman wrote:
    Well, not a fan of plodders, his defence isn't that great & has a pretty slow scoring rate, find the bloke a painful watch... surely can't be that difficult to find another opener that's more solid in defence & can score a bit more freely, theses are just basics of the game.
    Considering very few teams in the world can find one, let alone two right now I don't think it's anywhere near as easy as you seem to think it is. We are arguably in an age of bowler's resurgence after a long time of batting domination. Most sides have better quality bowling attacks than batting lineups right now.

  9. Post
    Celticknife wrote:
    Considering very few teams in the world can find one, let alone two right now I don't think it's anywhere near as easy as you seem to think it is. We are arguably in an age of bowler's resurgence after a long time of batting domination. Most sides have better quality bowling attacks than batting lineups right now.
    This is their full time job so there should be more good openers around in test cricket in all teams, just asking openers to have a good solid technique in defence & score off the loose ones & don't go chasing the wide balls outside off stump to bring the slips into play, isn't rocket science... where is the resurgence in bowling around the world, there's definitely no freaks out there like Wasim Akram, Shane Warne or Waquar Younis these days.

  10. Post
    signman wrote:
    This is their full time job so there should be more good openers around in test cricket in all teams, just asking openers to have a good solid technique in defence & score off the loose ones & don't go chasing the wide balls outside off stump to bring the slips into play, isn't rocket science... where is the resurgence in bowling around the world, there's definitely no freaks out there like Wasim Akram, Shane Warne or Waquar Younis these days.
    Disagree, I think Philander is genuinely great and Rabada has the potential to be an all-time great on par with or better than Donald and Steyn.

    It takes a pretty specific type of person to be a successful Test opener, as much as it's easy to say 'solid technique, don't go chasing the wide balls, score off the loose ones' - the truth is human nature does not lend itself well to being able to defend for hours at a time game in, game out.

    Statistically, our highest average opening partnership in the last decade was Guptil and Flynn, neither of whom are natural Testy openers, only opened 5 times together, and even then averaged less than 50 together. We've tried plenty of openers, with no better results.

  11. Post
    Celticknife wrote:
    Disagree, I think Philander is genuinely great and Rabada has the potential to be an all-time great on par with or better than Donald and Steyn.

    It takes a pretty specific type of person to be a successful Test opener, as much as it's easy to say 'solid technique, don't go chasing the wide balls, score off the loose ones' - the truth is human nature does not lend itself well to being able to defend for hours at a time game in, game out.

    Statistically, our highest average opening partnership in the last decade was Guptil and Flynn, neither of whom are natural Testy openers, only opened 5 times together, and even then averaged less than 50 together. We've tried plenty of openers, with no better results.
    Wouldn't say Philander is in the great category, he's more of a very very accurate medium pace bowler that can get some movement through the air at times.

    Fair point about human nature, but surley the players would have it in their mindsets with a test match played over such a long period patience is a huge part of the game, but so is making the most of your opportunities... good debate mate.

  12. Post
    <N> wrote:
    331 runs at 55 for a guy batting 7 who is supposedly the 'dumbest sportsperson' to ever represent NZ.

    "Colin de Grandhomme: Two mature, fighting test innings at Christchurch saw him go to the next level after a poor run in the ODIs. If only he could find 10kmh with the ball he'd be the ideal allrounder, but gets plenty of ticks for now and sets up a cracking duel with Corey Anderson next summer."

    Wtf. We literally have THREE bowlers bowling 135. We do not need four. 125k gives a lot of guys trouble - especially if he's moving it which he was doing, he was unlucky not to have more wickets in chch. Philander's average pace in the Aussie series was 127k...

    Corey Anderson averages 27 with the bat and bats 5 or 6, it's not even a contest. CdG looks comfortable out there batting.
    For some reason I have been agreeing with many of your posts recently. Corey Anderson should not be in the test team as he is limited in the number of shots he can play well.
    However he is a must for t20 side.
    I don’t know what I make of him as an odi player. He seems to have regressed significantly since the 2015 World Cup. He was so bad in the champions trophy that I don’t know if I would try him again.

    But yes if he came back to play in the t20 side and we got past our obsession with only letting cdg bat in the last 5 overs then we could have an order as follows

    Munro
    Guptill
    Corey
    CDG
    Chapman
    Williamson
    Seifert

    I think we would beat the Aussie’s with that lineup. The only real change I am recommending is cdg up the order and Corey added to the team.

  13. Post
    I think I prefer Chapman at 3 personally, I think he is the closest in pure quality to Kane, but can also score a lot faster more consistently.

  14. Post
    Here is a follow up post with pros and cons of cdg

    He can be a bit easy to get out as he can’t stand not to play attacking shots. He got out in both innings of this test playing shots he needn’t have. Remember in tests 40s and even 60s or 70s don’t pay the bills. If you get in then ideally you want to ton up. Ross and Kane very much understand this rule and they have 35 test centuries between them.
    Cdg has a poor temperament compared to those two.

    What he does well is that he has a broad array of technically correct shots. Many first class cricketers may only have 5 or 6 shots they trust. Cdg has more than this and this allows him to keep out and even score off a vast array of deliveries.

    With the emergence of Santner odi batting he is the real threat to cdgs test spot and not Anderson.

    Basically our test team is mint as far as I am concerned. Is Raval a world class player? No he isn’t but every team has one or two weaker players. Eg South Africa have Bavuma I don’t rate him despite his recent good score and very much doubt he would make the blackcaps.

    England have Vince and other concerns

    We are a damn good team. The only place our test team looks shit is Australia as they play on absolute roads over there and somehow our batsman contrive to get out to nothing deliveries at 145 kmh

    Thinking about it next time we play there let’s drop Trent and Tim and play Ferguson and Milne and go for raw pace.

  15. Post
    wrighty wrote:
    Here is a follow up post with pros and cons of cdg

    He can be a bit easy to get out as he can’t stand not to play attacking shots. He got out in both innings of this test playing shots he needn’t have. Remember in tests 40s and even 60s or 70s don’t pay the bills. If you get in then ideally you want to ton up. Ross and Kane very much understand this rule and they have 35 test centuries between them.
    Cdg has a poor temperament compared to those two.

    What he does well is that he has a broad array of technically correct shots. Many first class cricketers may only have 5 or 6 shots they trust. Cdg has more than this and this allows him to keep out and even score off a vast array of deliveries.

    With the emergence of Santner odi batting he is the real threat to cdgs test spot and not Anderson.

    Basically our test team is mint as far as I am concerned. Is Raval a world class player? No he isn’t but every team has one or two weaker players. Eg South Africa have Bavuma I don’t rate him despite his recent good score and very much doubt he would make the blackcaps.

    England have Vince and other concerns

    We are a damn good team. The only place our test team looks shit is Australia as they play on absolute roads over there and somehow our batsman contrive to get out to nothing deliveries at 145 kmh

    Thinking about it next time we play there let’s drop Trent and Tim and play Ferguson and Milne and go for raw pace.
    Aussies grow up on quick wickets and they probably have net bowlers that bowl the pace of Ferguson and Milne, I don't think they'd make a (positive) difference

  16. Post
    Indigo1 wrote:
    Aussies grow up on quick wickets and they probably have net bowlers that bowl the pace of Ferguson and Milne, I don't think they'd make a (positive) difference
    In the past two tours Tim and Trent were terrific in Hobart and the pink ball test.
    The other matches they were ineffective,

    Let's try Ferguson and Milne and see what happens. Remember basically all the Aussie quicks on the domestic circuit who can bowl around 145kms seem to be effective.

    Those Aussie pitches rewards speed and nothing else.

    I would actually like to go with 4 pace men from positions 8-11 and drop CDG and put in Santner at 7 to be 5th bowler and offer spin. The only issue with 4 pace men is I can only think of two real quicks on our circuit.

    You are probably right Indigo but Tim and Trent won't get the job done either.

  17. Post
    Ferguson and Milne are as quick as anything they have.

  18. Post
    CdG offers a point of difference with bat and ball in reality. That is what you want.

  19. Post
    wrighty wrote:
    Ferguson and Milne are as quick as anything they have.
    Milne isn't. He was struggling to crack 140 kmh on last year's tour of India, and hasn't looked any faster since coming home this domestic season. And while Ferguson is quick, he lacks stamina, and lapses back to fast-medium speeds after 4 or 5 overs.

    The idea that we should bin Southee and Boult for Milne and Ferguson on a hypothetical tour of Australia is naive. Boult was recovering from a serious back injury during our last tour of Australia and clearly wasn't 100% fit. He's pretty undeniably the most complete bowler in the country, and you only have to look at Anderson's stats from this summer's ashes to realise that fast medium swing bowlers can still be effective in Australia.

    Milne averaged 35 against the pace-shy batsmen of the plunked shield this season. How do you think he'll fair against Australian batsmen who bat against Starc and Cummins in the nets? Ferguson at least has some decent domestic performances behind him, but his stamina issues means you have to either play 5 bowlers, or look to get a lot of overs out of CdG. Either way, it ruins the balance of the side.

    Realistically, Boult, Southee and Wagner is still probably the best option for a pace trio in Australia. And at this point, Santner is probably the best option for a spinner (though Astle and Ajaz may be worth considering depending on how things go over the next couple seasons).

  20. Post
    Ben85 wrote:
    Milne isn't. He was struggling to crack 140 kmh on last year's tour of India, and hasn't looked any faster since coming home this domestic season. And while Ferguson is quick, he lacks stamina, and lapses back to fast-medium speeds after 4 or 5 overs.

    The idea that we should bin Southee and Boult for Milne and Ferguson on a hypothetical tour of Australia is naive. Boult was recovering from a serious back injury during our last tour of Australia and clearly wasn't 100% fit. He's pretty undeniably the most complete bowler in the country, and you only have to look at Anderson's stats from this summer's ashes to realise that fast medium swing bowlers can still be effective in Australia.

    Milne averaged 35 against the pace-shy batsmen of the plunked shield this season. How do you think he'll fair against Australian batsmen who bat against Starc and Cummins in the nets? Ferguson at least has some decent domestic performances behind him, but his stamina issues means you have to either play 5 bowlers, or look to get a lot of overs out of CdG. Either way, it ruins the balance of the side.

    Realistically, Boult, Southee and Wagner is still probably the best option for a pace trio in Australia. And at this point, Santner is probably the best option for a spinner (though Astle and Ajaz may be worth considering depending on how things go over the next couple seasons).
    wow. Someone who knows their cricketing chops. I hope you post more often on this cricket forum even if we don't always agree as having a debate is just as fun.

    Ferguson has changed. He isn't bowling 150 anymore. About 6 months ago he started bowling a sustainable 143-145kms but every ball and into his second and third spell of the day. My memory of the recent ODIs is that he kept up this pace all day and the domestic batsman who faced him said his third spell of the day was just as good/fast as his first. Those quotes were big news to us because he seemed ridiculously inconsistent in his first ODI series and would be operating in the low 130s toward the end of his ten overs.

    I will concede on Milne, someone who averages 35 in our conditions can't possibly go well in theirs.

    I would still bring in Ferguson though to the rotation and scour the country for another 140kms plus guy.

    Through scrounging around on disreputable social media outlets the scuttle butt is the following bowlers fluctuate between 135-145 and may be upgrades at least on Southee in the speed department

    Kuggs
    VanBeek
    Bennett
    Tickner (that should excite N)
    Henry when he is clicking right.

    VanBeek took 40 wickets this season and I won't tell you his average as you won't believe it.
    And Bennett took 38 wickets.

    So if we aren't going to go Milne, and we keep Boult on the basis that he only did badly due to a bad back then we have the following as an attack/team.

    1 Raval
    2 LAtham
    3 Kane
    4 Ross
    5 Nicholls
    6 Watling
    7 Santner
    8 VanBeek
    9 Bennett
    10 Ferguson
    11 Boult

    I would back that attack to do better than Boult / Southee / Wagner / CDG in Australian conditions.

    Here is my major point. Stuart Broad has a Khazillion wickets yet got beaten up over there. Anderson did well in some games but not all.
    The ball really does not swing that much. And you basically get people out by testing the batsman's technique with 145kmh thunderboults until he capitulates.

    I realise Ben that you understood the scope of my question but I want to press it anyway.

    I am talking about Australian conditions only. Not England where Southee is marvellous, or South Africa, or India or even Bangladesh.

    I guess you are right in the sense that not only pace thrives in Australia as Paddles led us to victory there in 1985, but yeah I just see so many touring batsman get out to gun barrell straight deliveries at express pace.