US to ground all 737 Max 8 aircraft

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  1. Post
    #1

    US to ground all 737 Max 8 aircraft

    The FAA had previously held out while many countries banned the Max 8 from flying over their airspace.

    All 157 people on board the Ethiopian Airlines flight were killed when it crashed just minutes after take-off.

    It was the second fatal Max 8 disaster in six months, after one crashed over Indonesia in October, killing 189.
    https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47562727

    Boeing stock is currently in free fall.

  2. Post
    #2
    sweet, buy boeing lads

  3. Post
    #3
    im sure they're be fine


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    #4
    Valeyard wrote:

    Boeing stock is currently in free fall.
    The stock is down $2 in the last 2 days, hardly what I'd call freefall.
    There was a big dip 4 days ago, long before the US banned these planes but it's stabilized and seems a good buy

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    #5
    How is this version such a ****up if they've been making the base model for 40 odd years?

  6. Post
    #6
    if they need more money they just start another war ya dingus

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    #7
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    How is this version such a ****up if they've been making the base model for 40 odd years?
    Because they thought exactly that and slipped some new stuff in without proper validation. Told everyone there was no surprises on the new model, then SURPRISE.

    Validation is expensive for Boeing and retraining is expensive for airlines so they would be hesitant to buy the new model if they thought they had to retrain everyone and Boeing doesn't have time for hesitancy when there's dollars to be made.

  8. Post
    #8
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    How is this version such a ****up if they've been making the base model for 40 odd years?
    tldr: this is a bigger version of the 737 with a tendency to nose up. Boeing wanted it to 'feel' like the older model so pilots can transition easier, so they added this wee gadget that noses the plane down...

  9. Post
    #9
    How was this problem not found after the first crash?

  10. Smile
    #10
    Valeyard wrote:
    Boeing stock is currently in free fall.
    Who was behind the failed airbus? (the huge plane that no one wants) was that boeing or some one else?

    SirGrim wrote:
    The stock is down $2 in the last 2 days, hardly what I'd call freefall.
    There was a big dip 4 days ago, long before the US banned these planes but it's stabilized and seems a good buy
    Would anyone lose out if things got worse? (apart from investors of course)

  11. Post
    #11
    CODChimera wrote:
    How was this problem not found after the first crash?
    It was.

    They did a big announcement for all the stuff they should have already said and told everyone about this sweet new gadget then. They were also working feverishly on an update to fix it, but it wasn't released yet.

    So they blamed the shutdown for it not being released albeit it's their own planes, they're not a government organisation and the US government shutdown should have nothing to do with the planes in the rest of the world.

    Magic Robertson wrote:
    Who was behind the failed airbus? (the huge plane that no one wants) was that boeing or some one else?
    Do you mean the A380? Airbus would be behind a failed Airbus...

    The A380 was mostly just a dick swinging contest, they wanted the biggest and best albeit fuel prices were rising and smaller, more regular and more efficient runs were what the market wanted/needed. Same reason why the 747 is finally dead.

    Technically the A380 was a success, they had the biggest and the best which is what they wanted. It's just that no one wanted to pay for that. Basically equitable to Nvidia's Titan. Everyone buys the 1080 Ti and below.

  12. Post
    #12
    suntoucher wrote:
    It was.

    They did a big announcement for all the stuff they should have already said and told everyone about this sweet new gadget then. They were also working feverishly on an update to fix it, but it wasn't released yet.
    Sounds like the retrospective training they offered was quite lightweight and didn't even mention the MCAS.

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    #13
    Boeing stock going down faster than... um... ah... dunno. Sorry bout that.

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    #14
    snaffta wrote:
    Boeing stock going down faster than... um... ah... dunno. Sorry bout that.
    MCAS must have thought it was climbing too rapidly.

  15. Post
    #15
    So you're convinced the plane is a piece of shit rather than it just being 2 pilots coincidentally ****ing up?

  16. Post
    #16
    if 4 pilots (not 2) **** it up that badly, twice, there is an issue with the aircraft.

  17. Post
    #17
    Just saw our plane from Hiroshima to Singapore has been switched from a Max 8 to an 800.

    Luckily it was grounded before it took off, rather than it grounding itself after take off.

    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    So you're convinced the plane is a piece of shit rather than it just being 2 pilots coincidentally ****ing up?
    Yep.

    - You've been driving a car for ten years and decide to replace it with the same car, then I tell you there's a new version of the car and it's exactly the same to drive but it's more efficient, is a seven seater and is the same price.

    - You buy the new car and drive it for another six months.

    - Then I tell you that I should notify you to pull seven levers under the dash if the brakes suddenly fail after a recent crash that killed all the occupants.

    But it's cool, it's just a new system that disengages the brakes if it thinks they're over applied when you're doing over 90KM/h to prevent them overheating and exploding. Don't worry about it, it probably won't happen and we're working on a software fix to correct it.

    - A month later the brakes fail, you weren't overapplying them (the sensor was wrong and there was only one) and you don't pull those seven levers and crash into the back of a stopped truck at 95KM/h, killing all occupants.

    - Your family is told that the new system wasn't documented and all of the certificates for safety and road worthiness are based on the original model.

    - Also I blame the US government shutdown for the software update not being released yet even though I'm not a US government company and you're in NZ.

    Are you at fault for the crash?
    Last edited by suntoucher; 17th March 2019 at 10:41 pm.

  18. Post
    #18
    Quasi ELVIS wrote:
    So you're convinced the plane is a piece of shit rather than it just being 2 pilots coincidentally ****ing up?
    Check on human factors/the dawn of ergonomics, it's really interesting. The upshot is that we should probably always view shit like this as a design failure. Highly trained humans usually don't **** up, and when they do, we should look deeply at the systemic flaws that made that ****up possible.

  19. Post
    #19
    Pretty interesting breakdown of it here (twitter thread):

    https://twitter.com/trevorsumner/sta...34362531155974

  20. Post
    #20
    Also this, Boeing assessed the plane and concluded good and safe because the government body didn't want to. And assisted in a speedy clearance.

    Several critical flaws were discovered after the first crash, and queried, then the second crash happened the same way.

    https://www.seattletimes.com/busines...&ICID=ref_fark

  21. Post
    #21
    Insane.

    I didn't read that article entirely (bookmark'd for later) but was it a hardware issue or a combination of hardware/software? Something regarding a sensor.

    Regardless it just reads as it was fast tracked to hit production before QA was respected. How that sort of proceedure occurs within the U.S. boggles me. Economic pressure obviously, but at this level wtf..

  22. Post
    #22
    Boeing has finally admitted Ethiopian had the same issue. Apparently the pilots even tried Boeings fix to no avail.

  23. Post
    #23
    Looks real bad for Boeing now. This article from the NYT details how the Ethiopian pilots apparently followed Boeing's procedures and still couldn't regain control of the aircraft. The NYT also reported on how the 737 Max's development was rushed and potentially compromised when Boeing was scrambling to match the A320's new designs.

    There are similarities between these crashes and one like Air France Flight 447, where the pitot tubes iced over and caused faulty airspeed readings, and the autopilot was subsequently disengaged and the plane went into a stall. However, directives had been issued by Airbus and France's aviation authority to operators and pilots on the pitot tube issue, and the pilots of Flight 447 reacted incorrectly and exacerbated the problem. The 737 Max issue is worse for several reasons: the issue is almost entirely in software, as there are two sensors on the plane and it only took a malfunction in one of them to cause the plane to become essentially uncontrollable, and also violating critical system redundancy precepts; the reason the MCAS system exists is seemingly almost entirely because of a shortcoming in Boeing's business planning and marketing, rather than some engineering necessity (ie. Boeing were scrambling to make up a competitive difference and instead of designing a new aircraft from scratch decided to adapt an existing airframe); potentially allowing business imperatives to take precedence over safety and engineering concerns by including the system but not informing or training pilots; and that there were two crashes in six months seemingly caused by the exact same issue, and Boeing both not fixing the issue and allowing planes to still fly.

  24. Post
    #24
    Turns out Boeing is now struggling with OTA updates lest they literally brick them via a literal blue screen of death.

    https://www.vox.com/2019/4/5/1829664...oftware-update

    But pilots of planes that didn’t crash kept noticing the same basic pattern of behavior that is suspected to have been behind the two crashes, according to a Dallas Morning News review of voluntary aircraft incident reports to a NASA database:

    The disclosures found by the News reference problems with an autopilot system, and they all occurred during the ascent after takeoff. Many mentioned the plane suddenly nosing down. While records show these flights occurred in October and November, the airlines the pilots were flying for is redacted from the database.

    These pilots all safely disabled the MCAS and kept their planes in the air. But one of the pilots reported to the database that it was “unconscionable that a manufacturer, the FAA, and the airlines would have pilots flying an airplane without adequately training, or even providing available resources and sufficient documentation to understand the highly complex systems that differentiate this aircraft from prior models.”

  25. Post
    #25
    This is the point where you stop buying into Early Access planes and wait for the full release.