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  1. Post
    #1

    Religious historical grievances discussion - split from Chch terror thread

    Man, the tail end of this thread makes me sad. I feel like we're reverting to form .

    SL1CKSTA: kierbear might be curt, but Hitchens is a man who described the Iraq war as "a war to be proud of" (https://www.weeklystandard.com/chris...to-be-proud-of) and defended the conditions at Abu Ghraib. He's dead serious. Hitchens view here is baseless fearmongering (as the constant criticism of Islam a decade later should show), and it's just plain depressing to be seeing people share someone expressing a fear of Islam after all this. This is a community who've responded to losing their loved ones by forgiving the shooter. I've said this a few times, but I'd really strongly encourage you to go out and actually meet some of the New Zealand Muslim community. They run the gamut from devout to casual, the same as the rest of our religious communities, and they're mostly pretty choice.

    As to Brunei, and the worry about the Muslim community not speaking up... I just want to touch on this once more, even though gneiss' link answers the question. Islam is a huge religion; it claims 1.8 billion people. In NZ, I don't think we have a feel for the scale of it; we're a tiny faraway neverland and most of our news media covers the Anglosphere. Brunei is a tiny, tiny (population 430,000!) country in South East Asia; what they're doing unequivocally sucks but I'd be surprised if that news even got 5 minutes of airtime in a place the size of Pakistan. We don't see our Christian community denouncing what the Ethiopians (a Christian nation) are doing -- and I'm sure plenty of them are, but they're not going to get a breath in the media compared to Brexit, Trump, etc. Not having a go, just trying to point out that the actions -- no matter how wrong -- of a nation smaller than Christchurch might not get prime-time coverage.

  2. Post
    #2
    KiwiTT wrote:
    To be fair most of that is against extremist terrorism. However, a search of "Muslims condemning Sharia Law" was less successful.
    To be fairer when Christians oppose some Church supported initiated anti-Gay laws in the West (yes this issue props up all the time everywhere in the West concerning gay marriage debate), it isn't reported as Christians condemning Biblical Law neither.

    I don't know too much about Islam except that there is a Sunni Shiite split (just like Orthodox vs Catholic, and then Catholic vs Protestant). But even between Sunni and Shiite there are different observances just like within the Protestant faith. I gather this from the skirmishes that occur in Pakistan and the middle east where Sunni v Sunni and Shiite v Shiite often come to fatal disagreement, let alone Sunni v Shiite.

    Fair to say Muslims disagree with each other on a few things on what should be the law of the land and how strict to apply/interpret the religion and its according Sharia Law.

    Here many of the same people that cry for secular laws and oppose religion reflected in state laws, oppose gay marriage based upon a Christian historical argument that marriage is between a man and a woman. Go figure.

    There's always issues with human societies surrounding extreme views, be it religion or wider politics. Christians West - Islam East - it makes no difference.
    Last edited by Paddles; 2nd April 2019 at 5:43 pm.

  3. Post
    #3
    Paddles wrote:
    To be fairer when Christians oppose some Church supported initiated anti-Gay laws in the West (yes this issue props up all the time everywhere in the West concerning gay marriage debate), it isn't reported as Christians condemning Biblical Law neither.
    Except Sharia Law is really brutal; Execution for being raped without 4 male witnesses or being gay, losing a limb for stealing, stoned to death for adultery, and then you have 'honour' killings in some parts as well.

    These type of brutal punishments should be condemned by all people and all religions.

  4. Post
    #4
    "Biblical law" is more along the lines of old testament sects which Jesus specifically opposed. It isn't hard to find regressives if you look for them but this isn't specifically Christian thought. On the other hand there is massive support for Sharia law and corporal punishment across the world, not by extremists but by regular people, because this is Muslim thought.

    Someone might like to move all this discussion to another thread?

  5. Post
    #5
    lumpy custard wrote:
    "Biblical law" is more along the lines of old testament sects which Jesus specifically opposed. It isn't hard to find regressives if you look for them but this isn't specifically Christian thought. On the other hand there is massive support for Sharia law and corporal punishment across the world, not by extremists but by regular people, because this is Muslim thought.

    Someone might like to move all this discussion to another thread?
    The point is sharia law isn’t a universally agreed upon thing with muslims.

  6. Post
    #6
    seeing every other political/cultural thread have basically ruined this forum, we may as well have a "why muslims really grind my gears" thread to finish it off.

  7. Post
    #7
    lumpy custard wrote:
    "Biblical law" is more along the lines of old testament sects which Jesus specifically opposed. It isn't hard to find regressives if you look for them but this isn't specifically Christian thought. On the other hand there is massive support for Sharia law and corporal punishment across the world, not by extremists but by regular people, because this is Muslim thought.

    Someone might like to move all this discussion to another thread?
    Your argument is literally - Christianity thought is not typically regressive but regular Muslim thought is.

    Just how many Muslims have you spoken to so as to form this opinion? Is this a widely and generally accepted academic fact? Or is it besmirching?

    We all like to think of Buddhists as peace loving, but in Myanmar Buddhist extremists are committing anti Muslim genocide. I'm not reading reports of Buddhists condemning this publicly in the media. I am sure some do. Majority Buddhists are also giving Muslims a tough time in Sri Lanka of late.

    If Christians are peace loving, then the Bosnian Anti-Muslim genocide takes some explaining too. But we do know because USA dropped some bombs, that the West had something to say about this.

    But it seems anyone is able to twist religion into justifiable total brutality and this is not limited to Muslim nor Old Testament thought but includes Buddhism and Christianity also. It took a European Holocaust before Christians started giving Jews a better time of things. Even now they are hard pressed to get into luxury Protestant Golf Clubs in USA, so they built their own.

    I have not studied Islam nor profess to know its regular people, but I am sure like all religious groups they are on a sphere, and are also influenced by how multi-cultural the societies are in which they now live.

    As for Western Laws - even in NZ and the UK - ours were far from ideal until the mid 1980's and early 90's when it was illegal to commit sodomy but legal to rape your wife.

    You want to condemn this law? Condemn the law, then. I am sure many Muslims, including gay ones, totally agree with you. But painting members of religions with a brush this wide seems a little off to me. Especially when there are so many different followings of any major faith. And when highlighting moral wrong occurring within one appeal to religion, its all too easy to miss that there are still many moral wrongs being committed by many faiths. The Anglican Church still has not uniformly nor majority approved of homosexual activity - but a few subsets have. Inequality is inequality even if less brutal.

    A lot of good has been done in the name of all religion, a lot of bad has been done in the name of all leading religions too. I have no idea what Destiny Church's policies would be if they held political sway.
    Last edited by Paddles; 2nd April 2019 at 7:50 pm.

  8. Post
    #8
    Basileus wrote:
    Why jump to the defense of something you admittedly know nothing about?
    I'm not defending Islam. I am questioning the statement.

  9. Post
    #9
    A thoughtful response Paddles - thank you.
    I totally agree that injustice is found all over;
    all religion has been exploited in name for political ends;
    not all Muslims believe the same thing;
    and many Muslims are secularised to some degree (far more likely amongst immigrants).

    What I take issue with is broadly applying cultural relativism to Christians and Muslims. There just isn't a Christian equivalence to Sharia - it's a completely different faith system with regards to the role of law.
    Although many people in the West won't actively go out of their way to support, for example, gay rights, I don't find this comparable to actually wanting to stone them to death. Secularised Muslims also don't support this, but there are untold millions (majorities in some countries) who support not only this but, for example, stoning a woman to death for the crime of having consensual sex. They believe this because it is a teaching. Pew Research has a lot of data if you're wondering.

    A Christian who is not secularised in the slightest will still condemn this behaviour, so I don't believe the cultural relativism card is appropriate.
    Last edited by lumpy custard; 2nd April 2019 at 8:37 pm.

  10. Post
    #10
    lumpy custard wrote:
    A thoughtful response Paddles - thank you.
    I totally agree that injustice is found all over;
    all religion has been exploited in name for political ends;
    not all Muslims believe the same thing;
    and many Muslims are secularised to some degree (far more likely amongst immigrants).

    What I take issue with is broadly applying cultural relativism to Christians and Muslims. There just isn't a Christian equivalence to Sharia - it's a completely different faith system with regards to the role of law.
    Although many people in the West won't actively go out of their way to support, for example, gay rights, I don't find this comparable to actually wanting to stone them to death. Secularised Muslims also don't support this, but there are hundreds of millions abroad who support not only this but, for example, stoning a woman to death for the crime of having consensual sex. Pew Research has a lot of data if you're wondering.

    A Christian who is not secularised in the slightest will still condemn this behaviour, so I don't believe the cultural relativism card is appropriate.
    Thanks for your polite reply.

    However, I did not take a cultural relativism card to it at all. In the least.

    I made no appeal to anyone trying to understand this law in any Islamic cultural terms at all - which would be cultural relativism. I am not defending this law in the least via cultural relativism or any other means. I am simply saying - don't wide brush members of any faith or pigeon hole what is the typical political view of any member of any faith. That is not cultural relativism, that is don't commit the generalization fallacy towards support of this law of any religious congregation with a wide array of following faiths and members.

    As for your argument, Many Christian Churches won't approve of Gay Marriage or gay behavior, but no longer call to have them executed, while one is far more brutal in its non approval of homosexuality, both are not ubiquitously approving of homosexuality. You're drawing a line in the sand between what is comparable and incomparable unequal treatment. Inequality is inequality. Non-approval is non-approval. Sure - only one response here is legally sanctioned as fatal. But if one is wrong, why are they not both wrong?

    Like I say, it took a Holocaust for many Christian countries to give Jews an easier time of things. Who knows, maybe some further Christian Churches will change their views after this law is applied. And people might want a refresher just how recently Christian Countries Laws to homosexuality decriminalized the behavior.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodomy_law
    Last edited by Paddles; 2nd April 2019 at 9:07 pm.

  11. Post
    #11
    lumpy custard wrote:
    A thoughtful response Paddles - thank you.
    I totally agree that injustice is found all over;
    all religion has been exploited in name for political ends;
    not all Muslims believe the same thing;
    and many Muslims are secularised to some degree (far more likely amongst immigrants).

    What I take issue with is broadly applying cultural relativism to Christians and Muslims. There just isn't a Christian equivalence to Sharia - it's a completely different faith system with regards to the role of law.
    Although many people in the West won't actively go out of their way to support, for example, gay rights, I don't find this comparable to actually wanting to stone them to death. Secularised Muslims also don't support this, but there are untold millions (majorities in some countries) who support not only this but, for example, stoning a woman to death for the crime of having consensual sex. They believe this because it is a teaching. Pew Research has a lot of data if you're wondering.

    A Christian who is not secularised in the slightest will still condemn this behaviour, so I don't believe the cultural relativism card is appropriate.

  12. Post
    #12
    Not sure if it was trolling, but it looked like he fell into the religion of a new ideology every month/year. Probably just another addiction to rustled jimmies.

    In all honesty, I find it amazing that the media is leading this charge against the alt-right, considering we have the media to thank for it's balanced reporting on all things islam for the last 20 years, but especially ramping it up since ISIS burned that yank a few years back.

  13. Post
    #13

  14. Post
    #14
    Sin^ wrote:
    Not sure if it was trolling, but it looked like he fell into the religion of a new ideology every month/year. Probably just another addiction to rustled jimmies.

    In all honesty, I find it amazing that the media is leading this charge against the alt-right, considering we have the media to thank for it's balanced reporting on all things islam for the last 20 years, but especially ramping it up since ISIS burned that yank a few years back.
    Are you referring to NZ made media, or the amount of media NZ consumes from the overseas?

    Even the papers are now full of cut and paste articles from overseas. So is the TV news. Even then a lot of the reports are fair and balanced. They simply require a more discerning audience.

    Even then, its a matter of logical interpretation. Isis did not represent all of Islam, nor the majority of Islam. Condemning their atrocities and behavior was fine, the audience then condemning all of Islam becomes a generalization fallacy.

    Too many people do not discern and discriminate between who is doing what. And apply a broad brush to everything. Half the problem is that extremist, terrorist or dictator leaders called for "Jihads" - that the Islam world never responded too widely in the least. That has had a serious effect on the western masses of us and them - when they overlook the same thing exists in Christian West of "crusading" (used by G Bush against "terrorism" - not to mention the earlier joining of NATO of economic philosophy vs Communism). Heck plenty of Islamic countries supported the Western nations in these wars and battles.

    Terrorist has not become known for what it should be to many people in the person in the street - one who commits acts of terror - it has become an ethnic slur towards Islamics, especially Central Asia and Middle East.

    Just google NZ image search "terrorist" - does this look balanced to all of the acts of terrorism committed in the world by many different peoples?

    https://www.google.co.nz/search?q=te...w=1175&bih=818

    Do we sanitize media for so much of its audience generalizing the information that they consume, or do we let the media do its role properly and rely on members of society not to generalize?

    Osama Bin Laden did so much damage to the view of Islam in the West. Just so much damage. It could take over a century to repair the harm he has done. He didn't help the Islamic world with copycat Islamic extremists neither.
    Last edited by Paddles; 3rd April 2019 at 7:48 am.

  15. Post
    #15
    kierbear wrote:
    It's weird that the only people who accuse others of "white guilt" though are people unwilling or unable to recognize their prejudices. I imagine it must suck to wallow in racism.
    You seem like an awesome non-prejudice bloke. And I read that link you gave, and sure enough, its full of people complaining about Jacinda wearing a hijab etc. One would think it was as though Jacinda didn't have free choice to wear whatever she wants too. But we all know she did. And that annoys some, because it proves that many Islam women wear it out of choice in NZ. Because they actually want to. One less arrow in the quiver of prejudice to use. But that's besides the point.

    But this time, despite the complainers bringing in all these irrelevant arguments - they have a valid point, "Dawn Parade is our event for this purpose". And once someone has a valid grievance, it just snowballs into the non-valid grievances they don't have and becomes a crap snowball.

    We don't need this to turn into a crap snowball out of respect and honour to the 50 dead. Islamic groups are not asking for this. Why make them further disliked by giving them something that they didn't ask for, don't want - and may in all likelihood not even attend?

    Just look at the crap fight on facebook. This wasn't necessary. But it was so predictable if someone has used a little common sense first. There is far more prejudice in this country than many realize. Pull the right triggers, it exposes itself in an ugly manner; don't pull the triggers where it has a valid foundation that is not actually prejudice, all you do is give prejudice more support and greater numbers.
    Last edited by Paddles; 4th April 2019 at 1:47 pm.

  16. Post
    #16
    https://www.facebook.com/Titahibay.r...zL5a&__tn__=-R

    My grand father and his brothers fought for free world and our christian way of belief and faith under the Indian Commonwealth regiment in Egypt. This act is down right smack in their faces for giving their lives fighting alongside British and ANZAC forces.I bet the Muslim brothers will stand with you to go to war for the same beliefs and values the next time???. Sure Violence and racism/religious fanaticism doesn't have a place in our society. Enough is done to underline this fact as per below posts.What is next?? is to have a IMAM say a prayer everyday in the school assemblies? Conduct your marriages in Muslim way? Change the National anthem to include ALLAH Or how about a green colour receding moon and a star in our flag? Integrate Sharia laws?? If you (Mr.Strombom and the Mayor) want to become a moslem and do those, please do so in private and not bring the ANZAC spirit and event of remembrance service into a moslem religious event as well as into disrepute for those who gave their lives. If you want a Muslim Imam say a prayer why not get Priests of all faiths as well? The Mayor and RSA does not have a say in this.This is a majority christians living nation and many of you don't have faith in God and thus will pander for a minority community that is not even 2% of the population. The Iranian, Turkish, Egyptian and the rest of Middle Eastern country ladies are forever fighting for freedom, freedom of speech and non sharia laws to enjoy life in full with freedom to do whatever they want. Here, our PM dons a Hijab and supports such suppression and oppression, which is another slap in those Moslem ladies' face who are jailed, persecuted and killed for standing up for their rights.Hon PM and whole of NZ handled the chch shooting matter very well and done everything right to take care of the victims and sufferers except for the Hijab thing. That is all what is needed!!! When you think of the past events in Paris, Spain, Russia, UK, Aus as well as US and Portugal, the muslim extremists did not come from elsewhere and they are within. Mind you, the moslem extremists yet to show their hand in response to chch shooting? Also, this kind of kiss arse actions losing the free world identity sure to trigger another imbecile to come across the ditch to cause more havoc??? IT IS AS DUMB AS YOU CAN GET Mr.Mayor and Mr.Strombom.!!!
    Just read this. Nice omission that 400,000 Muslims from India fought in World War 2.

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...irst-world-war

    Now its all in even for those who don't even have skin in the game for the Dawn Parade of NZ Returned Serviceman. Why give people an in?

    When you lift scabs in society - it's not pretty, it's not rational. But it's there. And it's not even been a month since the shooting.

    By the way - Turkey is officially secular and banned people from wearing the headscarf who may otherwise want to :P It loosened the bans in 2017 because of the protests from women for the past 80 years who wanted it. Being told what not to wear is almost as bad as being told what to wear.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Headsc...ghts_in_Turkey
    Last edited by Paddles; 4th April 2019 at 2:20 pm.

  17. Post
    #17
    I don't get the argument that's going on here.

    It's like you guys think Muslims belong to some kind of hard done by, but worthy nationality, when it's nothing of the kind.

    Islam's no different from Christianity, it's utterly absurd, and the refuge of the poorly educated and the delusional.

    It doesn't deserve any more respect than the Church of the Latter Day Saints, the Seventh Day Adventists or Anglicans, and practitioners of voodoo if there are any left.

    The human race is staring down the barrel of extinction within a few generations, and rationality is going out the window if you think you can arrange some sort accommodation with something that relies on the credulity of it's followers.

  18. Post
    #18
    Islam, by definition, is not a religion of peace. As for any other religion

  19. Post
    #19
    DirtySlave wrote:
    Islam, by definition, is not a religion of peace. As for any other religion
    Haha.

    You think Christianity is/was a religion of peace?

    History wasn't one of your subjects at school was it?

  20. Post
    #20
    Zarkov wrote:
    Haha.

    You think Christianity is/was a religion of peace?

    History wasn't one of your subjects at school was it?
    It's more peaceful now. Compare Christian terrorism to Islamic

    https://storymaps.esri.com/stories/t...cks/?year=2017

  21. Post
    #21
    Mr sika wrote:
    It's more peaceful now. Compare Christian terrorism to Islamic

    https://storymaps.esri.com/stories/t...cks/?year=2017
    Lol - you're seriously joking right? Do you actually believe this website is remotely balanced - when Muslims are being genocided - literally genocided in Myanmar - and the only entry on your linked website about Myanmar is a car bomb injuring 6 of the genociding army??????? I mean seriously. Should they all take be being genocide sitting down?

    Look at all the groups it follows - only Muslim groups. This is literally an Anti-Islam website. Look at the non muslim event it reports or alleges to have done it, left wing and eco terrorists. This is literally a far right Islam hating website. Literally.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017–p...ide_in_Myanmar

    https://www.reuters.com/investigates...akhine-events/

    https://www.thedailystar.net/frontpa...r-army-1490278

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-a8057846.html

    Look - you're either an anti-Islam gun owning maniac who belongs on a watchlist - seriously naive and gullible - or one of the most epic sarcastic trolls of all time. I don't care which it is as long as its not the first.

    For everybody else - if you care to know a bit more about what is going in the world - you would have been able to tell the difference.
    Last edited by Paddles; 4th April 2019 at 11:45 pm.

  22. Post
    #22
    Paddles wrote:
    Lol - you're seriously joking right? Do you actually believe this website is remotely balanced - when Muslims are being genocided - literally genocided in Myanmar - and the only entry on your linked website about Myanmar is a car bomb injuring 6 of the genociding army??????? I mean seriously. Should they all take be being genocide sitting down?
    Who is ARSA?

  23. Post
    #23
    Vulcan wrote:
    Who is ARSA?
    A mostly Muslim group but includes some Hindus that let off a car bomb injuring 6 of the genocide rs and raping army in reply to the genociding and raping Muslims in Myanmar.

    You realize you're backing the wrong horse entirely here?

    Even some Hindu are in ARSA.

    That's how out of control the Buddhists in Myanmar and formerly Burma are. They're commiting a long term genocide against Muslim and Hindu.

    The Buddhist driven genocide don't even care about the religion. They're against Indian and Chinese minorities in the country. Chinese of same faith are getting a slightly easier time of it, but they're still getting f'd over too. Both groups have been persecuted since 1962.

  24. Post
    #24
    Zarkov wrote:
    Haha.

    You think Christianity is/was a religion of peace?

    History wasn't one of your subjects at school was it?
    Any ideology, by definition can not end with peace. I wasn't in disagreement with you.

    If you want true cultural and religious diversity, you need a secular state, and a godless constitution.

  25. Post
    #25
    Paddles wrote:
    Both groups have been persecuted since 1962.
    You mean Burma has had a civil war going on since well before the 60's. No side is innocent.