The Sekiro Accessibility Debate

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  1. Post
    #26
    As someone who is a decent player at most games, souls games are just far to hard to learn for the casual gamer. It's not something you can just pickup and play if you've never played the genre before.

    Like me, I just started sekiro and I literally can't get past the first level. To me it's not so much challenging in the sense I have to learn the moves etc, it's just not that rewarding for me having to play that style that I'm asked to do in this game.

    But that's the way the developer wants it and that's what they are known for and enjoy producing so it should be left entirely up to them.

    This game is ****ing brutal though.

  2. Post
    #27
    Bloody wrote:
    it does not but what it does is dilutes the experience the Developer wants. Not every experience should be given to anyone who wants it, some mountains are higher than others. If you cannot put the time in or just cannot, then you cannot.
    How exactly does putting in an option that can be completely ignored 'dilute the experience'? People who want to play the game as the developer intended will play the regular mode, and those who just want to play the game their way will play easy mode.

    Eg see Dead Space. The first two games made good money for what they were (niche, medium budget survival horror games). However EA wanted ALL OF THE MONEY, hence they forced Visceral to make DS3 into an all out action, co-op game to get the normie dollar (co-op action games were all the rage back then). The game tanked because the series' identity was gone, the core audience whom you rely upon had been alienated. The fairweather casual market who EA were chasing were already happy with CoD, Gears, Battlefield, Halo, etc.
    That has nothing to do with difficulty but rather a purposeful monitsation strategy. Both easy (DS3, Destiny 2 launch) and hard (the garbage pile of Korean MMOs, mobile games with bullshit currencies) difficulty games can suffer from this.

    The only convincing argument I've heard in favour here is WoW, but that's a specific case where it has to be done due to the online-only aspect as having different difficulty settings will make it unfair for other players. Sekiro and all other SP games don't have the same limitations.

  3. Post
    #28
    I'm in two minds about this - I've never played the Dark Souls games as I hated the difficulty progression (I mean I don't want to be hand-held, but at the same time I'd prefer more gradual difficulty scaling e.g. Binding of Isaac rather than the need to just git gud from the start).

    At the same time, I totally respect the developer's creative vision - but I do think it will cost them sales (for example I almost certainly won't buy it based on my Dark Souls experience but might watch a 'let's play').

  4. Post
    #29
    KevinL wrote:
    I'm in two minds about this - I've never played the Dark Souls games as I hated the difficulty progression (I mean I don't want to be hand-held, but at the same time I'd prefer more gradual difficulty scaling e.g. Binding of Isaac rather than the need to just git gud from the start).

    At the same time, I totally respect the developer's creative vision - but I do think it will cost them sales (for example I almost certainly won't buy it based on my Dark Souls experience but might watch a 'let's play').
    I'm in the same situation. Don't exactly want my hand held but then I don't want to have to die 1000s of times to understand how to play properly.

  5. Post
    #30
    Xev wrote:
    This. Saying you've completed Sekiro is much less of an achievement when you can flip a switch and make it a cakewalk. It's a rite of passage. But with an easy mode, what sets it apart from everything else on the market right now? And besides, people would play it on easy mode and realise 'this game isn't very good'. Because the magic of the game lies in the depths of it's mechanics and how it will actively force you to learn them and utilise them. All that goes out the window when there's no real reason to use them because you can progress just fine on a lower difficulty without them. Like I've said in my previous post, I'm not opposed to easy modes, but Sekiro is just not the game for it. It's a love letter to gamers who want a more challenging experience and there's so so few games that provide that as well as Sekiro does. To add an easy mode would entirely undermine that.
    Did you write this by any chance? Someone needs to submit this to him for his next ep.


  6. Post
    #31
    ludez wrote:
    I'm in the same situation. Don't exactly want my hand held but then I don't want to have to die 1000s of times to understand how to play properly.
    I think Binding of Isaac is a great example of a well balanced difficulty curve - it can be punishing as ****, but the game rewards the player for playing by adding gameplay elements whilst continuously increasing difficulty to match. So even though you keep dying, it feels like you are getting somewhere without just being a grind for XP to spend.

    Whereas my experience with Dark Souls was the difficulty is punishing from the start and it forces you to learn e.g. attack patterns before you are permitted to progress (and in my case, I gave up at the first boss as repeating the same sequence over and over with no progression sucks).

  7. Post
    #32
    ludez wrote:
    I'm in the same situation. Don't exactly want my hand held but then I don't want to have to die 1000s of times to understand how to play properly.
    And yet by selecting a difficulty you can have a happy medium between the two. The Kingdom Hearts series, for example, can become nearly soulsborne hard at proud/critical levels or a piece of cake at the beginner difficulty level, with options in between. What makes Sekiro so special?

  8. Post
    #33
    KevinL wrote:

    At the same time, I totally respect the developer's creative vision - but I do think it will cost them sales (for example I almost certainly won't buy it based on my Dark Souls experience but might watch a 'let's play').
    I don't agree this game would have increased sales if there was an easy mode. Like I said before most casuals don't even care about these games if they even know about them at all. All they care about are the big mainstream games like Ass Creed, CoD, Spiderman etc.

    Does anyone here actually having any casual gamer friends say they wish these games were easier so they could play them?

    I was talking to a casual gamer mate at work about Sekiro & they had never heard about it before & couldn't care less about it even if it had an easy mode.

    Its like when BF1 came out alot of BF veterans hated it because it was more casual and went back to BF4. Devs should worry about their core base first & foremost. They're the ones who will keep buying their games.

  9. Post
    #34
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    Its like when BF1 came out alot of BF veterans hated it because it was more casual and went back to BF4. Devs should worry about their core base first & foremost. They're the ones who will keep buying their games.
    The irony of this statement is that BF games were built upon casual play. BF1942 and BF:V were both classic 'pick a class and go' games - they didn't need unlocks, ranks, levels, medals etc. in order for them to stand out. The BF series in its early days was proof that 'hardcore' gamers and casuals could both love the same game.

  10. Post
    #35
    ludez wrote:
    As someone who is a decent player at most games, souls games are just far to hard to learn for the casual gamer. It's not something you can just pickup and play if you've never played the genre before.

    Like me, I just started sekiro and I literally can't get past the first level. To me it's not so much challenging in the sense I have to learn the moves etc, it's just not that rewarding for me having to play that style that I'm asked to do in this game.

    But that's the way the developer wants it and that's what they are known for and enjoy producing so it should be left entirely up to them.

    This game is ****ing brutal though.
    Keep trying bro. I'm pretty average at these games too even though I've beaten Bloodborne (which is a lot easier imo). Its just a case of learning the mechanics & eventually it will click. I'm about 10 or 15 hours into Sekiro & still haven't fully sussed out the mechanics & still struggle a bit.

    The reward is learning from your mistakes, gradually getting better & finally overcoming an enemy you initially thought youd never be able to overcome

  11. Post
    #36
    People try to do crazy things in games all the time -like beat the boss without weapons/armour or carry an object all the way to the end of the game.

    It is a challenge they invent for themselves.

    Play the game the way you want -as long as you are having fun who cares?

  12. Post
    #37
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    Did you write this by any chance? Someone needs to submit this to him for his next ep.

    A masterclass effort in missing the entire point, but please, do go on. I'm listening intently and with great anticipation.

    The above sentence aside, I'll be the first to admit that Sekiro absolutely hands my ass to me. I don't know if I'm ever going to finish it. But I respect the game for that. It respects it's players in their ability and their persistence. If I don't make it to the end, it is what it is. Those who have clearly have more gaming chops than I do. As an aging gamer, I hardly consider myself at the helm of the difficulty curve and aren't nearly the most skilled gamer there is. But I do respect a game that shows me no quarter, gives me no option to tone things down and demands that I be better. Games like that are few and far between and while I may not be the gamer that experiences the game to it's fullest, I certainly am one that doesn't wish the game should change for my needs and adores the fact that it compromises for nobody. If I want it, I have to work for it, and I love that mentality and sincerely hope that mentality continues to apply for us all. Because it's something irregular, special and all too rare in this age of handholding and mass appeal.

    I don't deny accessibility in mainstream gaming being a positive thing, it's great that just about anybody can play anything and have a level of difficulty tuned to them. But don't disparage the game intended for more experienced and hardcore players for not being accessible to those that fall outside of that category. Let certain products appeal to certain people, rather than all products be comprised to appeal to everybody. Personally, I'd rather less products that appeal specifically to me than all products that appeal to me as an afterthought.

  13. Post
    #38
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    I don't agree this game would have increased sales if there was an easy mode. Like I said before most casuals don't even care about these games if they even know about them at all. All they care about are the big mainstream games like Ass Creed, CoD, Spiderman etc.

    Does anyone here actually having any casual gamer friends say they wish these games were easier so they could play them?

    I was talking to a casual gamer mate at work about Sekiro & they had never heard about it before & couldn't care less about it even if it had an easy mode.

    Its like when BF1 came out alot of BF veterans hated it because it was more casual and went back to BF4. Devs should worry about their core base first & foremost. They're the ones who will keep buying their games.
    For me, i would definitely buy these kinds of games if there was an easy mode. I got Witcher 3, and played it on "In it for the story" Pussy difficulty. But i think it was IST who mentioned that he played it on the hardest difficulty, and likened it to a From game. So my view is that there is room for both, and i feel that they are limiting their sales by not having a mode that caters to a less skilled player. I can't see how it would dilute the experience; if you want it hard, put it on hard difficulty.

    I bought Dark Souls on 4 separate times - really wanted to experience the gritty world, the dark and foreboding atmosphere, the interesting 'hollow' mechanic etc. But i never got anywhere with it. My play style is just too loose for the precision required for these kinds of games.

    And here i am again, re-acquiring Bloodborne to have yet another crack at it....... i keep coming back because i feel like i'm missing out on something awesome. Like i say, that's the story, the lore, the world etc rather than the sense of accomplishment from beating some super-difficult boss.

    Here's a theory; are devs like From reluctant to include easier difficulties, because it will expose just how short the game actually is? Is just one "f**k you!" difficulty a kind of artificial padding to make the game seem longer?

  14. Post
    #39
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    How exactly does putting in an option that can be completely ignored 'dilute the experience'? People who want to play the game as the developer intended will play the regular mode, and those who just want to play the game their way will play easy mode.
    The Dev does not want to give you a easy mode. This should be the end of the discussion. Caveat Emptor.

  15. Post
    #40
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    Keep trying bro. I'm pretty average at these games too even though I've beaten Bloodborne (which is a lot easier imo). Its just a case of learning the mechanics & eventually it will click. I'm about 10 or 15 hours into Sekiro & still haven't fully sussed out the mechanics & still struggle a bit.

    The reward is learning from your mistakes, gradually getting better & finally overcoming an enemy you initially thought youd never be able to overcome
    The problem I'm.having is it's incredibly boring so far with the mechanics. It's literally block block strike, repeat repeat.

  16. Post
    #41
    ludez wrote:
    The problem I'm.having is it's incredibly boring so far with the mechanics. It's literally block block strike, repeat repeat.
    Yeah I agree the combat can be a bit repetitive but I wouldn't call it boring. Theres isn't alot of variety when it come to combat compared to the other From games. The other games have alot more variety when it comes to weapons, builds etc so you play the game in more than just one way.

  17. Post
    #42
    Frederick James wrote:
    For me, i would definitely buy these kinds of games if there was an easy mode. I got Witcher 3, and played it on "In it for the story" Pussy difficulty. But i think it was IST who mentioned that he played it on the hardest difficulty, and likened it to a From game. So my view is that there is room for both, and i feel that they are limiting their sales by not having a mode that caters to a less skilled player. I can't see how it would dilute the experience; if you want it hard, put it on hard difficulty.

    I bought Dark Souls on 4 separate times - really wanted to experience the gritty world, the dark and foreboding atmosphere, the interesting 'hollow' mechanic etc. But i never got anywhere with it. My play style is just too loose for the precision required for these kinds of games.

    And here i am again, re-acquiring Bloodborne to have yet another crack at it....... i keep coming back because i feel like i'm missing out on something awesome. Like i say, that's the story, the lore, the world etc rather than the sense of accomplishment from beating some super-difficult boss.

    Here's a theory; are devs like From reluctant to include easier difficulties, because it will expose just how short the game actually is? Is just one "f**k you!" difficulty a kind of artificial padding to make the game seem longer?
    Yeah I mean these games are definitely not for everyone. Just the exhiliration of getting through very hard section or defeating a once unbeatable boss is second to none when it comes to gaming.

    I'm by no means that good at these games. I haven't beaten any of the Souls games & BB is the only one I've beaten. I think it because I don't really enjoy the slower, defensive play style of the Souls games.

    My play style is pretty loose as well which is why I'm struggling with Sekiro alot more than BB. BB was def more forgiving in that regard.

    To me its a waste of time playing on the easiest mode as its basically the same as watching a playthrough on You Tube lol. I would get no sense of achievement playing on easy.

    You have a point with the length of these games. They'd probably be 75% shorter without the high difficulty level lol

  18. Post
    #43
    I just feel relief that i haven't wasted $75 on a game i've only been able to experience 2% of - i don't get any real sense of achievement or satisfaction. My "buzz" is on experiencing the world and the story.

  19. Post
    #44
    Frederick James wrote:
    I just feel relief that i haven't wasted $75 on a game i've only been able to experience 2% of - i don't get any real sense of achievement or satisfaction. My "buzz" is on experiencing the world and the story.
    Yeah fair enough. Luckily their are numerous other games out there that will satisfy that buzz lol.

  20. Post
    #45
    Kotaku wrote an interesting piece on this.

    https://kotaku.com/an-easy-mode-has-...ame-1833757865

    In video games, easy is a dirty word, even when it shouldn’t be. There’s something about the word “easy” that rubs some players as condescending, something that we should maybe leave behind—except where we shouldn’t. Like in FromSoftware games and Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, a game that finds itself plagued by a debate that is, by now, familiar: Should it have an easy mode?

    Despite Sekiro’s departure from many of the gameplay elements that made FromSoft series Dark Souls and Bloodborne infamously difficult, many players have the same takeaway about the game: it’s hard. Some say it’s too hard, and that it should have an easy mode. Since FromSoftware has spent the last decade crafting games that notably exclude easy modes, the notion that they might suddenly be introduced feels borderline heretical.

    Like pledging a fraternity, a From game becomes a little bit more than a game when everyone who’s finished it has had to endure the same litany of absurd, theatrical challenges. Finish a From game, and you belong to an exclusive club full of other people who get it. Furthermore, Sekiro removes one of the biggest options that previous From games provided to players stymied by difficulty: the ability to summon other players for help. As a result, talking about Sekirocan easily shift to talking about you, all the things you did to beat its many challenges, and your personal case for why you earned your spot in Club Sekiro.

    To some, difficulty is fundamental to the FromSoftware experience. It informs every aspect of the company’s design philosophy. From’s spare style of storytelling, largely conveyed through cryptic item descriptions and subtle environmental clues, works better when you are forced to go through levels again and again. The stories these games tell often carry themes that revolve around decay or the loss of humanity. Failure allows you to both grasp the story and directly engage with it, completing the circuit. In Sekiro, these ideas are brought into focus in an unusually clear manner for FromSoftware; dying and resurrection are an explicit mechanic with which you interact, and the game’s story plainly contemplates what that might cost. This all makes for a compelling case that Sekiro must be difficult, because difficulty is the point.

    Part of the trouble is that “difficulty” can mean so many different things.

  21. Post
    #46
    i struggled to stay interested with Dark Souls, sekiro is a much better game - finding it much easier too.

  22. Post
    #47
    Frederick James wrote:
    I just feel relief that i haven't wasted $75 on a game i've only been able to experience 2% of - i don't get any real sense of achievement or satisfaction. My "buzz" is on experiencing the world and the story.
    Yep. Me too

  23. Post
    #48
    Not sure where the skill element comes into a game like this. I would liken the combat to fighting the ai from like a Tekken game where there blocks are op, one hit is crazy damage. A more accessible gameplay style would be so good right about now, cause I'm genuinely bored of doing the same thing over and over to beat enemies. There's just no variation here. Surely there could be different ways to beat enemies rather just literal block then attack?

  24. Post
    #49
    ludez wrote:
    Not sure where the skill element comes into a game like this. I would liken the combat to fighting the ai from like a Tekken game where there blocks are op, one hit is crazy damage. A more accessible gameplay style would be so good right about now, cause I'm genuinely bored of doing the same thing over and over to beat enemies. There's just no variation here. Surely there could be different ways to beat enemies rather just literal block then attack?
    Get DMCV bro

  25. Post
    #50
    Black Plague*** wrote:
    Get DMCV bro
    Yeah probably will man.