The Sekiro Accessibility Debate

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  1. Post
    #51
    ludez wrote:
    Not sure where the skill element comes into a game like this. I would liken the combat to fighting the ai from like a Tekken game where there blocks are op, one hit is crazy damage. A more accessible gameplay style would be so good right about now, cause I'm genuinely bored of doing the same thing over and over to beat enemies. There's just no variation here. Surely there could be different ways to beat enemies rather just literal block then attack?
    Yeah I'm starting to feel your pain. Bloodborne is a much better game in terms of combat & variety. You should give that a go before you give up on these types of games entirely. Its the most fun & accessible From game imo.

  2. Post
    #52
    Frederick James wrote:
    I just feel relief that i haven't wasted $75 on a game i've only been able to experience 2% of - i don't get any real sense of achievement or satisfaction. My "buzz" is on experiencing the world and the story.
    and that is good consumer ethic . Do you research, decide for yourself and live with it. I personally would love to play Division etc but the bullet sponge mechanics in that setting just made me just yeah ..nah.. plus i do not have time to grind these kind of looter shooter titles. The changed it in Division 2 but still the time grind plus the publisher / epic store makes me just go /shrug.

  3. Post
    #53
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    That has nothing to do with difficulty but rather a purposeful monitsation strategy. Both easy (DS3, Destiny 2 launch) and hard (the garbage pile of Korean MMOs, mobile games with bullshit currencies) difficulty games can suffer from this.
    I mentioned nothing about difficulty with the Dead Space 3 example. The argument was loss of franchise's identity in pursuit of reaching new audiences.

    Don't gaslight, brah. Your sacred cow Gran Turismo 6 was alongside Dead Space 3 and Forza Motorsport 5 as being embroiled in a micro-transaction controversy, it still sold over 5 million copies (+ Forza 5 sold at least 1.3 million). Gamers at that time who gave a shit about MTXs were clearly a vocal minority. Alienating the core audience was much more likely the large contributing factor to DS3's failure.

  4. Post
    #54
    EvaUnit02 wrote:
    Alienating the core audience was much more likely the large contributing factor to DS3's failure.
    Couldn't agree more, reminded me more of Gears of Space 3

  5. Post
    #55
    Bloody wrote:
    and that is good consumer ethic . Do you research, decide for yourself and live with it. I personally would love to play Division etc but the bullet sponge mechanics in that setting just made me just yeah ..nah.. plus i do not have time to grind these kind of looter shooter titles. The changed it in Division 2 but still the time grind plus the publisher / epic store makes me just go /shrug.
    I do research, but I suppose I also naively think "How hard can it be!?!?". And I really want to like these games, so I'm torn as! I admit there's a FOMO element to it too. I like Div2, don't mind the bullet sponge aspects, but like Destiny 2, I'm not into the grind, and that's where Div 2 differs; there's so much to do, so it doesn't feel like a grind.

    EvaUnit02 wrote:
    Alienating the core audience was much more likely the large contributing factor to DS3's failure.
    That's a valid point, and i admire From's determination to not do that. But do you think it's just a little bit entitled for a core audience to get upset about the inclusion of an easy mode when the very difficult mode that this core audience love so much is still right there for them to play and enjoy? I know you're talking about DS3, so I'm not trying to put words in your mouth Eva, just level that same point on the From games.

  6. Post
    #56
    The above sentence aside, I'll be the first to admit that Sekiro absolutely hands my ass to me. I don't know if I'm ever going to finish it. But I respect the game for that. It respects it's players in their ability and their persistence. If I don't make it to the end, it is what it is. Those who have clearly have more gaming chops than I do. As an aging gamer, I hardly consider myself at the helm of the difficulty curve and aren't nearly the most skilled gamer there is. But I do respect a game that shows me no quarter, gives me no option to tone things down and demands that I be better. Games like that are few and far between and while I may not be the gamer that experiences the game to it's fullest, I certainly am one that doesn't wish the game should change for my needs and adores the fact that it compromises for nobody. If I want it, I have to work for it, and I love that mentality and sincerely hope that mentality continues to apply for us all. Because it's something irregular, special and all too rare in this age of handholding and mass appeal.
    Sure and that's great. However, you haven't really explained why an easy mode alongside a regular difficulty would change any of this for you. Again, plenty of single player games can and do offer both modes that give no quarter as well as modes that exist for people who want a less infuriating experience. If ego stroking and boasting is your main reason for completing these games, then most modern games have an achievement system that clearly says "I completed the game on the hardest difficulty".

    Nobody has to lose out on anything - you can still belong to an exclusive club of people who beat the game the way it was intended (with the difficulty locked in as well, might I add) and show it off to others while other people experience the game the way they want to experience it.

    EvaUnit02 wrote:
    I mentioned nothing about difficulty with the Dead Space 3 example. The argument was loss of franchise's identity in pursuit of reaching new audiences.
    DS3 is irrelevant to this discussion as difficulty really didn't have anything to do with any of the changes EA made. It was more about greed and money than difficulty or lack of it. Many, many franchises have implemented variable difficulty systems just fine without completely changing the game's identity.
    Last edited by BURN_BABY; 10th April 2019 at 10:17 pm.

  7. Post
    #57
    BURN_BABY wrote:
    Sure and that's great. However, you haven't really explained why an easy mode alongside a regular difficulty would change any of this for you. Again, plenty of single player games can and do offer both modes that give no quarter as well as modes that exist for people who want a less infuriating experience. If ego stroking and boasting is your main reason for completing these games, then most modern games have an achievement system that clearly says "I completed the game on the hardest difficulty".

    Nobody has to lose out on anything - you can still belong to an exclusive club of people who beat the game the way it was intended and show it off to others while other people experience the game the way they want to experience it.



    DS3 is irrelevant to this discussion as difficulty really didn't have anything to do with any of the changes EA made. It was more about greed and money than difficulty or lack of it. Many, many franchises have implemented variable difficulty systems just fine without completely changing the game's identity.
    Yeah, difficulty no, but it does make a point that making a game more appealing to the masses can have it's drawbacks.

  8. Post
    #58
    Black Plague*** wrote:
    Yeah, difficulty no, but it does make a point that making a game more appealing to the masses can have it's drawbacks.
    It didn't have much to do with making the game more appealing to the masses though, it was more to do with creating a game entirely around a MTX system that nobody wanted. That's not designing for the masses, that's designing for the stakeholders.

    It's what EA does to its bought studios and it predates any of the Soulsborne or the recent 'hard only difficulty' discussions. RIP Maxis, Westwood and soon, Bioware.

  9. Post
    #59
    I 100% believe that it's like an achievement to beat a game like this, relentlessly hard and no easy option, it feels like a badge of honor to beat...and that's how I like it.

    Accessibility and crowd reach be damned.

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  10. Post
    #60
    I like these kinds of 3rd person action RPG's, so i'm really just sad that I don't get to enjoy them due to my puny gaming chops. I respect From's decisions to not include easier modes, and am in awe of those who can get through these kinds of games - truly is a badge of honour as IST points out.

  11. Post
    #61
    Barring medical conditions or really poor motor skills I personally believe everyone is capable in beating Sekiro if they put in the time and effort, its just when you give up for various reasons or aren't prepared to put in any more time to improve which is the determining factor. There is nothing wrong with that by the way but the same methodology applies to most things in life.

  12. Post
    #62
    Frederick James wrote:
    I like these kinds of 3rd person action RPG's, so i'm really just sad that I don't get to enjoy them due to my puny gaming chops. I respect From's decisions to not include easier modes, and am in awe of those who can get through these kinds of games - truly is a badge of honour as IST points out.
    Speedruns of the game are down to about 30 minutes if that makes you feel any better

  13. Post
    #63
    Bt wrote:
    Barring medical conditions or really poor motor skills I personally believe everyone is capable in beating Sekiro if they put in the time and effort, its just when you give up for various reasons or aren't prepared to put in any more time to improve which is the determining factor. There is nothing wrong with that by the way but the same methodology applies to most things in life.
    Yep I agree. I'm not very good at this game but I'm making progress slowly yet surely. Just need to take the time to learn the mechanics & keep persevering. Same with BB i was terrible at first but over time I got better & better & eventually beat it.

    IST wrote:
    I 100% believe that it's like an achievement to beat a game like this, relentlessly hard and no easy option, it feels like a badge of honor to beat...and that's how I like it.
    Agreed. You don't see people bragging about beating Spiderman, RDR2, Ass Creed etc lol

  14. Post
    #64
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    Yep I agree. I'm not very good at this game but I'm making progress slowly yet surely. Just need to take the time to learn the mechanics & keep persevering. Same with BB i was terrible at first but over time I got better & better & eventually beat it.



    Agreed. You don't see people bragging about beating Spiderman, RDR2, Ass Creed etc lol
    I'm in your boat: I keep learning and getting better and eventually I'll beat it: time constraints and work get in the way...but I'll get there.

    I like it hard with no soft option (that's what she said) X

    Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

  15. Post
    #65
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    Agreed. You don't see people bragging about beating Spiderman, RDR2, Ass Creed etc lol
    Err, yeah you do. All the time actually lol







    All different genres, all have different difficulty settings and all are hard as balls to beat on their toughest challenge. People who think that the Soulsborne games are the be all and end all of hard games just because there's no difficulty setting clearly haven't looked hard enough elsewhere.

    As for this 'badge of honour' bullshit, do you guys even hear yourselves? It feels like the whole 'PC master race' x1000 in here. I'm reading these comments in Jim Sterling's commentocracy voice and it fits so damn perfectly. The elitist snobbery is palpable.
    Last edited by BURN_BABY; 11th April 2019 at 1:50 pm.

  16. Post
    #66
    BURN_BABY wrote:

    All different genres, all have different difficulty settings and all are hard as balls to beat on their toughest challenge. People who think that the Soulsborne games are the be all and end all of hard games just because there's no difficulty setting clearly haven't looked hard enough elsewhere.

    As for this 'badge of honour' bullshit, do you guys even hear yourselves? It feels like the whole 'PC master race' x1000 in here. I'm reading these comments in Jim Sterling's commentocracy voice and it fits so damn perfectly. The elitist snobbery is palpable.
    I disagree about all games being hard as balls on the hardest difficulty. Alot of games still don't come close to the difficulty of FROM games even on their hardest difficulty.

    I dont think its snobbery at all. Its more like a sense of accomplishment beating something that not everyone can beat & didnt even believe I could beat at first. For me beating Bloodborne gave me a sense of accomplishment more than any other game cos I never thought I'd be able to beat it when I first started playing it. I don't look down or think less of other gamers who havent beaten any of these games at all because I don't regard myself highly at all when it comes to skill. I'm just an average gamer who stuck with it & eventually was able to beat BB more through determination than actual skill. I can't even beat DS3 because I got stuck on this one boss but will beat him eventually lol.

  17. Post
    #67
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    I disagree about all games being hard as balls on the hardest difficulty. Alot of games still don't come close to the difficulty of FROM games even on their hardest difficulty.
    I shoud've elaborated here, I meant to say all the youtube videos linked. Even so though, there are plenty of games that do come close (and surpass) soulsborne games while keeping a good experience for beginners.

    I dont think its snobbery at all. Its more like a sense of accomplishment beating something that not everyone can beat & didnt even believe I could beat at first. For me beating Bloodborne gave me a sense of accomplishment more than any other game cos I never thought I'd be able to beat it when I first started playing it. I don't look down or think less of other gamers who havent beaten any of these games at all because I don't regard myself highly at all when it comes to skill. I'm just an average gamer who stuck with it & eventually was able to beat BB more through determination than actual skill. I can't even beat DS3 because I got stuck on this one boss lol.
    Again, look at my videos above - not everyone can beat those games on their hardest settings and that's just a small taste of games that cater to both beginners and those who want soulslike difficulty. And TBH you do sound a bit of a snob when you make the argument of 'I'm just an average gamer so everyone should be able to beat it'. The way I see it, you're looking down on other gamers by saying they're somehow 'unworthy' of progressing in the game. Some gamers experience fun in their games in a different way that you do, why shouldn't they also have their definition of fun in the soulsborne games?

    Let me put it this way, what exactly does it take away from you if an easy difficulty is added? You still get your pride and satisfaction from beating the game in the manner the developer intended, you get your literal badge of honour in the form of trophies/achievments which you can share etc. - you still belong to that same club of people.

  18. Post
    #68
    I get what you mean, Dirt Rally is the Dark Souls of driving games.

  19. Post
    #69
    Yeah, it's not like you're going to put "Completing Sekiro" on your CV. Bragging about completing these kinds of games only works with other hardcore gamers, the rest of us go "Oh you have no life? Good for you champ!".

    I'm just kidding, nerds. It's jealousy talking

  20. Post
    #70
    I don't think hard or difficult is the correct word for this game. It's more cheap tactics, so far in my play it hasn't been at all based on your skill but rather block then attack.

  21. Post
    #71
    BURN_BABY wrote:

    And TBH you do sound a bit of a snob when you make the argument of 'I'm just an average gamer so everyone should be able to beat it'. The way I see it, you're looking down on other gamers by saying they're somehow 'unworthy' of progressing in the game. Some gamers experience fun in their games in a different way that you do, why shouldn't they also have their definition of fun in the soulsborne games?

    Let me put it this way, what exactly does it take away from you if an easy difficulty is added? You still get your pride and satisfaction from beating the game in the manner the developer intended, you get your literal badge of honour in the form of trophies/achievments which you can share etc. - you still belong to that same club of people.
    You're taking what I'm trying to say the wrong way. I'm just an average gamer with average skills so to me beating a game like BB gives me a sense of achievement. I never said anything about people who cant beat it being unworthy & I'm not belittling those who cant finish it at all. It makes no difference to me if someone can finish it or not & I don't think less of them if they can't. This whole badge of honour thing is purely personal & isn't meant to be some expression of elitism. A lot of people who aren't into these games would destroy me at other games so I definitely dont think any less of them as a gamer.

    I still stand by my easy mode opinions though. FROM have been making these type of games for 10 years why should they suddenly change because a vocal minority care all of a sudden? Most of this stuff was just stirred up by gaming journalists in the first place. I've barely heard anyone complain about this before.
    Last edited by Ins0mn1ac; 11th April 2019 at 4:19 pm.

  22. Post
    #72
    Ins0mn1ac wrote:
    I still stand by my easy mode opinions though. FROM have been making these type of games for 10 years why should they suddenly change because a vocal minority care all of a sudden? Most of this stuff was just stirred up by gaming journalists in the first place. I've barely heard anyone complain about this before.
    I think (and I'm basing this on other articles I've read as clearly I never progressed very far on their previous titles) that in previous games that whilst skill was the predominant factor, to a certain extent you could still grind out an advantage so you didn't have to completely rely on skill.

    My understanding is that Sekiro takes away the grind and hence it's entirely about skill

  23. Post
    #73
    KevinL wrote:
    I think (and I'm basing this on other articles I've read as clearly I never progressed very far on their previous titles) that in previous games that whilst skill was the predominant factor, to a certain extent you could still grind out an advantage so you didn't have to completely rely on skill.

    My understanding is that Sekiro takes away the grind and hence it's entirely about skill
    Yeah I think you're totally correct & made me realise why no one really made a fuss before. People could negate the difficulty somewhat by farming & also being able to summon other players to help out. Farming is a major reason I was able to beat BB lol.

    In Sekiro it's purely based on skill & you can't farm & make yourself OP like the other games. I think they should've kept the farming elements in this so if you were having trouble you could just grind to make yourself stronger & make the game a bit easier. They should've also added a coop mode like the other games. This would be a better solution than having an easy mode & also keep everyone happy as all the other games had those things so no one could really complain about it.

  24. Post
    #74
    I'm just not enjoying the game at all, I'm literally forcing myself to play it. The combat is unsatisfying, all you are doing is blocking and then attack. There is literally one attack button and that is RB/r1. You have some add on which are useless. Your only way to defeat enemies is a death blow. Literally one option to kill enemies, yet they are able to do all sorts of different techniques.

    I was really enjoying the story elements of the game, especially the sculptor he's ****ing awesome. But if I'm spending 1 hour beating some shit guy who chunks 90% of your health down in one hit then when I've progressed I'm already over it.


    This could be a huge game that casual players could enjoy, with an easy difficulty setting you could enjoy the combat and the story at the same time.

  25. Post
    #75
    When you can beat a boss with no damage it feels amazing. Just beat Genichiro, but got hit once.