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  1. Post
    #1

    Baggy Greens Thread

    Sorry to interlope on your forum but wrighty invited me to start an Oz cricket thread.

    Our cricket goes back a long way to pre Ashes when an indigenous colonial side toured the old country in the 1860s. Then it was pre Federation when in 1877 the Ashes were born with Australia doing the impossible..defeating a strong English side for the first time. So incensed were the class conscious Poms at being beaten by these colonial upstarts that they printed in a local paper that English cricket was dead and that as a result they would burn a bail to represent the cremation of their beloved sport. The ashes were placed in a tiny urn and the rest is sporting history.
    http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...tralia-1876-77

  2. Post
    #2
    This clip represents one of Australia's finest moments over our arch enemy England.
    https://youtu.be/nTaVRuxje80

  3. Post
    #3
    Another magic Oz moment against the old enemy. This time on their soil.
    https://youtu.be/jxN0lQKNVxg. The same tour the return of an Ashes swing master..
    https://youtu.be/KBG1pSMgTnw

  4. Post
    #4
    Below is the scorecard from the first ever Test match between our two nations.http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...ealand-1945-46

  5. Post
    #5
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Below is the scorecard from the first ever Test match between our two nations.http://www.espncricinfo.com/series/1...ealand-1945-46
    Yeah, that was a real thrashing the Basin in Wgtn use to be like a minefield for years, most of the wickets in NZ use to be crap as they'd have rugby & soccer/football played on them as well, those conditions certainly don't help you develop or improve your standard of cricket, we didn't really have the money to have grounds to play cricket on only, now the Basin in Wgtn is just used for cricket only, it has good pace & carry but it's like a road to bat on & with the technology they have now we have the option of drop-in pitches for some of the other grounds.

  6. Post
    #6
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Another magic Oz moment against the old enemy. This time on their soil.
    https://youtu.be/jxN0lQKNVxg. The same tour the return of an Ashes swing master..
    https://youtu.be/KBG1pSMgTnw
    There's always a very fierce rivalry between NZ & Aussies no matter what sport it is, but have to say I really enjoy it when either of our countries give the poms a thrashing in cricket or any other sport, it's great when the arrogant pommy media end up with egg all over their faces.

  7. Post
    #7
    signman wrote:
    Yeah, that was a real thrashing the Basin in Wgtn use to be like a minefield for years, most of the wickets in NZ use to be crap as they'd have rugby & soccer/football played on them as well, those conditions certainly don't help you develop or improve your standard of cricket, we didn't really have the money to have grounds to play cricket on only, now the Basin in Wgtn is just used for cricket only, it has good pace & carry but it's like a road to bat on & with the technology they have now we have the option of drop-in pitches for some of the other grounds.
    Dont embrace drop ins whatever NZ cricket does. They have spoilt Test cricket as a spectacle in Oz. The MCG is an absolute road as is Adelaide Oval. They are even taking about making the Gabba a drop in and AFL (Aussie Rules) want the SCG turned into a drop in. Over the SCG Trust's dead body it says.

  8. Post
    #8
    signman wrote:
    There's always a very fierce rivalry between NZ & Aussies no matter what sport it is, but have to say I really enjoy it when either of our countries give the poms a thrashing in cricket or any other sport, it's great when the arrogant pommy media end up with egg all over their faces.
    Nothing better in our sport than giving those arrogant Poms a hiding. I recall Beefy Botham saying England would win the 2015 Ashes 5-zip. When we actually crunched them by the same margin you should have heard Beefy's feeble excuses. The best thing was he had nowhere to hide.

  9. Post
    #9
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Dont embrace drop ins whatever NZ cricket does. They have spoilt Test cricket as a spectacle in Oz. The MCG is an absolute road as is Adelaide Oval. They are even taking about making the Gabba a drop in and AFL (Aussie Rules) want the SCG turned into a drop in. Over the SCG Trust's dead body it says.
    Yeah, fair point about drop-ins... always very difficult for the groundsman to prepare that ideal test wicket where you want a bit in it for the bowlers & the batsmen can play their shots with some confidence too pretty consistently throughout a match.

  10. Post
    #10
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Nothing better in our sport than giving those arrogant Poms a hiding. I recall Beefy Botham saying England would win the 2015 Ashes 5-zip. When we actually crunched them by the same margin you should have heard Beefy's feeble excuses. The best thing was he had nowhere to hide.
    Never a good idea for a top player to make outrageous comments like that, it definitely came back to bite Beefy on the arse big time

  11. Post
    #11
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Dont embrace drop ins whatever NZ cricket does. They have spoilt Test cricket as a spectacle in Oz. The MCG is an absolute road as is Adelaide Oval. They are even taking about making the Gabba a drop in and AFL (Aussie Rules) want the SCG turned into a drop in. Over the SCG Trust's dead body it says.
    Adelaide was the world's most famous road of a pitch bar none when it was a block still.

    Removing the block just stops hundreds more opportunities to scuff the ball up on the block, both from the batmans shots and the fielders bounce throwing back in. Removing the block means it takes much much longer to get reverse going. If ever. But they could drop in a greenie if they wanted too. Two of those drop ins vs SA int he ODI last summer (new Perth and Adelaide) were full grass coat and the Kookaburra ball was orthodox swinging still for Steyn and Rabada even in the final overs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...0%9319#1st_ODI

    Drop ins ain't the main issue, it is what is being dropped in. You can simply take reverse out of the game to a very large degree while increasing orthodox if you choose too with a drop in. Or if you want reverse, just prepare a bald pitch that hurt and rip the ball up in no time like some of those UAE pitches - even with no block on a drop in. But then this will also then bring spin into the game. They can make any pitch these days - remember the training centre I showed you in Dubai? But there's an element of something has to give.

    If you want reverse swing and no spin, that's very difficult to achieve with a drop in and would take some serious curator skill. It may still be possible, but it wont be possible as early in the game I imagine.

    Everyone is pitch doctoring. Everyone. Blocks and drop ins. It's the degree to which teams are doing it that is more famous than others.

    If I had a team to look after full of batsmen who don't like swing or spin, and a stack of fast bowlers to rotate my way through who are not renowned for orthodox swing, I'd be serving up roads for my team too so as to get more wins and less losses. The skill is getting the balance right. SA overcooked it big time vs SL. And paid the price. They got it perfect vs India, though.

    But as I say, you can drop anything in. Its keeping reverse swing in the game with a grassed pitch that is the problem for a curator to overcome. They could water the outfield less to enable this for example, but the players will complain when they get injured and scuffed up themselves from sliding. Noone liked the outfield conditions in Pakistan back in the day. They weren't that short on water as to not be able to water an outfield. But Pak wanted reverse swing, and to take Indian, Sri Lankan (or Australian wrist) spinners out of the game if possible, and not have the pitch green enough for trundlers to knock over their owns batsmen with orthodox and seam.

    Look how green they can make a pitch there when they want to when they have 2 seamers -one an orthodox swing master in JK and the opposition are batting aces with spinners... http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...hes-35-all-out

    The Windies have completely changed their test pitch instructions and ball type. Tests there for their past 2 home summers are nothing at all like the 10 past years plus before. Their pitches were slow and dead, basically assisting spin. Now they're bouncy, swinging and seaming all over the place.

    Everything about home pitch conditions is game-able. And people are getting very good at it.
    Last edited by Paddles; 17th April 2019 at 12:59 am.

  12. Post
    #12
    Paddles wrote:
    Adelaide was the world's most famous road of a pitch bar none when it was a block still.

    Removing the block just stops hundreds more opportunities to scuff the ball up on the block, both from the batmans shots and the fielders bounce throwing back in. Removing the block means it takes much much longer to get reverse going. If ever. But they could drop in a greenie if they wanted too. Two of those drop ins vs SA int he ODI last summer (new Perth and Adelaide) were full grass coat and the Kookaburra ball was orthodox swinging still for Steyn and Rabada even in the final overs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...0%9319#1st_ODI

    Drop ins ain't the main issue, it is what is being dropped in. You can simply take reverse out of the game to a very large degree while increasing orthodox if you choose too with a drop in. Or if you want reverse, just prepare a bald pitch that hurt and rip the ball up in no time like some of those UAE pitches - even with no block on a drop in. But then this will also then bring spin into the game. They can make any pitch these days - remember the training centre I showed you in Dubai? But there's an element of something has to give.

    If you want reverse swing and no spin, that's very difficult to achieve with a drop in and would take some serious curator skill. It may still be possible, but it wont be possible as early in the game I imagine.

    Everyone is pitch doctoring. Everyone. Blocks and drop ins. It's the degree to which teams are doing it that is more famous than others.

    If I had a team to look after full of batsmen who don't like swing or spin, and a stack of fast bowlers to rotate my way through who are renowned for orthodox swing, I'd be serving up roads for my team too so as to get more wins and less losses. The skill is getting the balance right. SA overcooked it big time vs SL. And paid the price. They got it perfect vs India, though.

    But as I say, you can drop anything in. Its keeping reverse swing in the game with a grassed pitch that is the problem for a curator to overcome. They could water the outfield less to enable this for example, but the players will complain when they get injured and scuffed up themselves from sliding. Noone liked the outfield conditions in Pakistan back in the day. They weren't that short on water as to not be able to water an outfield. But Pak wanted reverse swing, and to take Indian, Sri Lankan (or Australian wrist) spinners out of the game if possible, and not have the pitch green enough for trundlers to knock over their owns batsmen with orthodox and seam.

    Look how green they can make a pitch there when they want to when they have 2 seamers -one an orthodox swing master in JK and the opposition are batting aces with spinners... http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...hes-35-all-out

    The Windies have completely changed their test pitch instructions and ball type. Tests there for their past 2 home summers are nothing at all like the 10 past years plus before. Their pitches were slow and dead, basically assisting spin. Now they're bouncy, swinging and seaming all over the place.

    Everything about home pitch conditions is game-able. And people are getting very good at it.
    Very informative Paddles. You do have a point as the new Perth Stadium deck, tho a drop in, was reminicent of the old WACA in a game last year. So why do MCG and SACA curators continue to spoil matches by preparing uncompetitive drop-ins?

  13. Post
    #13
    deleted

  14. Post
    #14
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Very informative Paddles. You do have a point as the new Perth Stadium deck, tho a drop in, was reminicent of the old WACA in a game last year. So why do MCG and SACA curators continue to spoil matches by preparing uncompetitive drop-ins?
    Honestly, you won't like the answer imo. When it comes to swinging conditions, Australia are the worst of SENA. Batting, bowling, you're just not that good at it. You're the second best at road warrioring behind South Africa, who's pace attack is still effective with no swing given their extra heat over NZ and England bowlers, and their massive reserves of seamers to choose from - if Steyn gets injured on a road bring M Morkel or Abbott. Bring in Olivier. They leave bring in Ngidi. SA have the tools to reverse and orthodox.

    Most your bowlers barely know how to orthodox swing it. Your batsmen rarely know how to play it. You've created a generation of road warriors. There's exceptions of course, but Australia struggle so much with orthodox swing to the point England has nailed you in 2009 I think, but 2013 and 2015 especially. They nailed you with reverse swing in 2005, but Warne kept you in the game. The pitches were rougher then as England had been experimenting with reverse under Gough in the preceding era - and Flintoff, Harmi and Jones (reverse and orthodox) partied out and had the time of their lives.

    And given your worries in UAE, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka - let alone India of late, you're hardly going to start serving up dustbowls to anyone. Not anyone bar maybe - just maybe South Africa.

    So the Australian curators serve up roads, and Australia typically wins at home unless faced with the fearsome Saffir attack. There wasn't much they do about India this time, with Aussie's crippled batting and India having a seam bowling attack that was the equal of Australia's - there was no real solution to be had.

    I personally feel this current Aus attack is overrated by Aus cricket fans. I said it to you before last summer on IS when I warned you that the Indian attack would get ya. Bar Cummins who bowls in the channel a lot with shorter balls too, noone is really scared by them at all. Ali and Abbas in UAE are scarier. The Saffirs are scary everywhere, unless a dustbowl and sometimes even then. Bumrah and Shami are really concerning opposition everywhere now for the latter who post injury is bowling the fastest he has ever with a lovely outswinger. Gabriel has turned into a hostile monster of late with his pace right up and the much slower Holder deadly support at home with huge lateral movement.

    I dont rate Boult and Southee outside swing. And Wagner is NZ's plan for when it's not swinging. It's gotten NZ to its best place in a long time. But I don't see us winning in Australia on roads with that. But if you give NZ greenies, Boult and Southee will give a swing masterclass that makes Jimmy Anderson amateur. NZ fans know this, because we see it several times a year when the heavens align. NZ can rip England apart in swinging conditions. Australia is totally unable to.
    Last edited by Paddles; 17th April 2019 at 2:27 am.

  15. Post
    #15
    Most your bowlers barely know how to orthodox swing it. Your batsmen rarely know how to play it. You've created a generation of road warriors. There's exceptions of course

    Sadly you have it spot on. Hopefully that is about to change. Here are two of our next gen that may be the exception to the rule..
    https://www.cricket.com.au/video/jos...hts/2018-02-17
    https://www.cricket.com.au/video/jhy...bba/2019-01-26
    Last edited by BaggyGreens; 17th April 2019 at 2:05 pm.

  16. Post
    #16
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    Most your bowlers barely know how to orthodox swing it. Your batsmen rarely know how to play it. You've created a generation of road warriors. There's exceptions of course

    Sadly you have it spot on. Hopefully that is about to change. Here are two of our next gen that may be the exception to the rule..
    https://www.cricket.com.au/video/jos...hts/2018-02-17
    https://www.cricket.com.au/video/jhy...bba/2019-01-26
    What's happening with Jake Doran. Did he live up to the hype?

  17. Post
    #17
    wrighty wrote:
    What's happening with Jake Doran. Did he live up to the hype?
    In a word..struggling.. averages @27 in FC.. @16 last season.

  18. Post
    #18
    Paddles wrote:
    Adelaide was the world's most famous road of a pitch bar none when it was a block still.

    Removing the block just stops hundreds more opportunities to scuff the ball up on the block, both from the batmans shots and the fielders bounce throwing back in. Removing the block means it takes much much longer to get reverse going. If ever. But they could drop in a greenie if they wanted too. Two of those drop ins vs SA int he ODI last summer (new Perth and Adelaide) were full grass coat and the Kookaburra ball was orthodox swinging still for Steyn and Rabada even in the final overs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_...0%9319#1st_ODI

    Drop ins ain't the main issue, it is what is being dropped in. You can simply take reverse out of the game to a very large degree while increasing orthodox if you choose too with a drop in. Or if you want reverse, just prepare a bald pitch that hurt and rip the ball up in no time like some of those UAE pitches - even with no block on a drop in. But then this will also then bring spin into the game. They can make any pitch these days - remember the training centre I showed you in Dubai? But there's an element of something has to give.

    If you want reverse swing and no spin, that's very difficult to achieve with a drop in and would take some serious curator skill. It may still be possible, but it wont be possible as early in the game I imagine.

    Everyone is pitch doctoring. Everyone. Blocks and drop ins. It's the degree to which teams are doing it that is more famous than others.

    If I had a team to look after full of batsmen who don't like swing or spin, and a stack of fast bowlers to rotate my way through who are not renowned for orthodox swing, I'd be serving up roads for my team too so as to get more wins and less losses. The skill is getting the balance right. SA overcooked it big time vs SL. And paid the price. They got it perfect vs India, though.

    But as I say, you can drop anything in. Its keeping reverse swing in the game with a grassed pitch that is the problem for a curator to overcome. They could water the outfield less to enable this for example, but the players will complain when they get injured and scuffed up themselves from sliding. Noone liked the outfield conditions in Pakistan back in the day. They weren't that short on water as to not be able to water an outfield. But Pak wanted reverse swing, and to take Indian, Sri Lankan (or Australian wrist) spinners out of the game if possible, and not have the pitch green enough for trundlers to knock over their owns batsmen with orthodox and seam.

    Look how green they can make a pitch there when they want to when they have 2 seamers -one an orthodox swing master in JK and the opposition are batting aces with spinners... http://www.espncricinfo.com/story/_/...hes-35-all-out

    The Windies have completely changed their test pitch instructions and ball type. Tests there for their past 2 home summers are nothing at all like the 10 past years plus before. Their pitches were slow and dead, basically assisting spin. Now they're bouncy, swinging and seaming all over the place.

    Everything about home pitch conditions is game-able. And people are getting very good at it.
    Good point about the Windies pitches, we were there recently (I am English for my sins) and it literally swung and seamed all over the shop. And it was back to the good old days of four windies fast bowlers piling in.

  19. Post
    #19
    jamie157 wrote:
    Good point about the Windies pitches, we were there recently (I am English for my sins) and it literally swung and seamed all over the shop. And it was back to the good old days of four windies fast bowlers piling in.
    What is the Windies secret beside using a variation of the Dukes ball? Whatever it is Cricket Aus. needs to follow suit with our decks. The Australian paying public are getting tired of watching Test matches on roads.
    Last edited by BaggyGreens; 23rd June 2019 at 2:31 pm.

  20. Post
    #20
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    What is the Windies secret beside using a vaiation of the Dukes ball? Whatever it is Cricket Aus. needs to follow suit with our decks. The Australian paying public are getting tired of watching Test matches on roads.
    They completely relayed their test blocks - all of them...

    It's not secret - Holder and Gabriel carved up the rankings as batsmen fell clueless...

    Every single pitch may be manipulated...

    Australia is not equipped to handle a Dukes, SL and Bangaldesh will beat you in swing. I am serious...

    You have no skills nor no business in playing swing. Stick to roads. Lakmal will destroy you.

    England struggles with Pakistan at home. Aussie will lose like they have never lost before with greenies. You don't play swing well at all. Forget about it.

    Stick to roads - its what Aussie knows. Leave spin to Asians, and swing to swing countries. You don't win in Bangladesh, and you havn't won in swing since 2001. You're only option is roads and watch Steve Smith average 80 at home. Cos you're no good away from roads. At all.

    Sounds brutal I know. But once you lost a test in Bangladesh, Australia lost all credibility as a test power nation. Aus cannot handle swing or spin - so get used to roads at home.
    Last edited by Paddles; 21st April 2019 at 5:41 pm.

  21. Post
    #21
    BaggyGreens wrote:
    What is the Windies secret beside using a vaiation of the Dukes ball? Whatever it is Cricket Aus. needs to follow suit with our decks. The Australian paying public are getting tired of watching Test matches on roads.
    For me the ball is a massive factor. And letís face it, it only swings in Australia for about 20 balls unless itís a day nighter!

  22. Post
    #22
    jamie157 wrote:
    For me the ball is a massive factor. And let’s face it, it only swings in Australia for about 20 balls unless it’s a day nighter!
    The ball is massive - esp a dukes, which in Wi is even more resistant than UK - but they relayed all the pitches from low and slow to grass and bounce - the grass helps protect the shine, and the bounce made Gabriel and Wood look like Ambrose off the pitch :P

  23. Post
    #23
    Paddles wrote:
    The ball is massive - esp a dukes, which in Wi is even more resistant than UK - but they relayed all the pitches from low and slow to grass and bounce - the grass helps protect the shine, and the bounce made Gabriel and Wood look like Ambrose off the pitch :P
    I don't know if it was our utterly spineless batters but their pace quartet looked absolutely lethal. And they all do something a little bit different to the other three. I'll definitely be interested to see how they get on in the next few series

  24. Post
    #24
    jamie157 wrote:
    I don't know if it was our utterly spineless batters but their pace quartet looked absolutely lethal. And they all do something a little bit different to the other three. I'll definitely be interested to see how they get on in the next few series
    Gabriel is lethal with his pace, but he's already 31, I'm not sure how much longer he will keep it going, maybe 2 more seasons.

    Roach has always been handy and Holder is devastating when there is swing. Its their new guys coming through that should be exciting WI fans - they have kids who while rough, and sending it through at real heat again - some with some nice shape on it.

    The real change is Bravo stiffening back up that top order as Hope goes from strength to strength.

  25. Post
    #25
    Paddles wrote:
    The ball is massive - esp a dukes, which in Wi is even more resistant than UK - but they relayed all the pitches from low and slow to grass and bounce - the grass helps protect the shine, and the bounce made Gabriel and Wood look like Ambrose off the pitch :P
    Oh to have the MCG topped with grass.. pace and bounce. Imagine the carnage Cummins and Pattinson could do. Jhye Richardson would swing it while Hazlewood would have a ball off the seam. More than anything Australia needs a variety of pitches. A swinger's paradise (Hobart), fast and bouncy (Perth and Brisbane), spin track (SCG and AO) Above all pitches that provide a fair contest between bat and ball and give us a decent preparation for overseas tours.